Episode 105 | How Strive Health is Leading the Fight Against Kidney Disease with Will Stokes

Will Stokes  00:00

There’s 37 million Americans who have some stage of kidney disease, and very, very few of them are diagnosed or aware at all that they have the disease, and oftentimes, more often than not, their disease progresses unaddressed until they have a kidney failure event and they’re starting to think about transplant or dialysis.

Voiceover  00:04

Welcome to the lead at the top of your game podcast where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now your host leadership tactics and organizational development expert, Karan Farrell Rhodes,

Karan Rhodes  00:36

Hello, my superstars. This is Karan, and welcome to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast. You know, as you know, we are featuring a variety of leaders in the healthcare space this month, and boy, do we have a fantastic guest on today’s show. We are so pleased to have will Stokes, who is the co founder and chief growth and performance officer of strive health. And strive health is a company that takes care of people with late stage stage kidney disease, and I was sharing it with will in our pre discussions that this really hit home to me, because I have two very, very close friends who have suffered with late stage kidney disease, one who had a successful transplant is doing fabulously. One who found a match, but unfortunately, her body was in the state that they couldn’t accept it yet, and she’s still living. She’s still maintaining but, you know, it just opened my eyes to the wide range of things that people with this unfortunate disease have to go through. So welcome to the podcast. Will

Will Stokes  01:45

Thanks for having me.

Karan Rhodes  01:47

I don’t want to start on the downer, but I just wanted to listeners to know how important the work that you all do in this space is, and it touches kind of each one of us and our members of our families in some kind of way. So can’t wait to learn more. Before we dive in, you know, we always love to learn just a little bit more about our guests. So for just as much as you feel comfortable, would you mind giving us a sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Will Stokes  02:16

Absolutely. So while not working, I am dad. I have a three and a half year old, a one and a half year old, spend a lot of time at work and traveling. So when I’m home and I’m not working, first priority for me is is be dad. Play with those boys. They take a lot of time and effort and energy, and are a whole lot of fun. So that’s what’s taking up my time outside of out of work. Beyond that, I also help out with an eighth grade football team. I love football. I’m a typically sad Tennessee Titans fan, but, but stick to them, and I love, I love working with the younger kids who are just starting out in football. So help out with an eighth grade football team here in Memphis.

Karan Rhodes  02:55

Amazing. Well, I bet your life is outside of work is fully taken up, especially with kids that young, and then with the football teams,

Will Stokes  03:03

Absolutely,

Karan Rhodes  03:04

It takes a lot. You probably when you’re traveling, that’s your break, if you will,

Will Stokes  03:09

In a lot of ways. But yeah, at home and love having the chance to be dad.

Karan Rhodes  03:16

Yeah, absolutely. And listen, as I was also teasing, Will in our pre chat that I’m also a long suffering, as you all know, because I talk about all the time long suffering Atlanta Falcons fan as well, so I can very well be empathetic with what Will is going through. But we do have hope. Every year. We do have hope. It will be a better year.

Will Stokes  03:36

That’s right. About time of year, there’s always hope.

Karan Rhodes  03:38

There is there is. Well, thank you for sharing. Will so let us dive into, you know, learn a little bit more about you and the work you all are doing at strive. But let’s start out with, if you can give us a high level overview of how you even got into the healthcare arena. Because I thought that was fascinating, a fascinating piece of your story.

Will Stokes  03:58

Yeah, absolutely. So no one in my family was, was medical kind of came to it through, through college. I was actually an engineer, and got tracked into biomedical engineering, and that was really first got exposed to healthcare as a whole, so many problems to solve such human impact in the work you get to do in healthcare, you know, a lot of jobs and careers you’re one or two degrees of freedom away from, you know, real person human impact. And in healthcare, you get to be right there on the front lines. You know, the work you do can literally save a life directly. So really got captivated about that idea about combining sort of a career you spend so much time on your your work, really having that kind of direct human impact. I kind of got exposed to that through my biomedical engineering work, and then once graduating college, kind of tracked into consulting with Deloitte Consulting, I really wanted to step back from engineering problems which are very small scale and deep, to step back to more healthcare industry problems all. Health care”s such a complicated system of providers, and how is it paid for, and a lot of regulation. It’s a big, complex system. And really had a lot of interest in solving problems at that level. And I got exposure to that while I was consulting, working with very large healthcare companies across the spectrum, health insurance companies, large health systems, pharmaceutical companies, that really got me industry exposure. There’s a lot of jargon, there’s a lot of niches to explore in healthcare. And that was, that was my education on on the industry as a whole. And then from there, by working with large companies, you know, I started to see all these younger, smaller companies running around, doing some of the cool work in healthcare. Seemed like a lot of the innovation was happening in startup land.

Karan Rhodes  05:49

Yeah.

Will Stokes  05:50

And so as I was seeing that kind of from my chair in consulting, I got the entrepreneurial bug and wanted to get involved in earlier stage companies. And that’s when I started to find different ways to get involved in starting companies, and that ultimately led me to strive and happy to talk a lot more about that. But that’s my journey at a high level,

Karan Rhodes  06:09

No, amazing, yes, and I have learned through talking with a variety of healthcare leaders, not only for this featured month of healthcare, but even previous episodes. It is so complex, dynamic matrix, you name the adjective you want to fit on, the world healthcare, it is mind boggling. I mean, you really have to, you’re lucky to be exposed to it in a way that you could kind of learn many of the areas. And I’m sure there’s still things that you’re uncovering as you network and talk to to this day,

Will Stokes  06:46

Every day,

Karan Rhodes  06:46

Every day? But you know, it is an essential industry that keeps us all alive and as well as possible. So yeah, let’s go ahead and talk a little bit more about strive itself and how you became a co founder of it and and the experience of a startup in this space?

Will Stokes  07:10

Yeah, absolutely. So after leaving Deloitte, I joined a firm called Oxion in their venture studio. And, long story short, my job there was to come up with new ideas in healthcare. It was an incubator of sorts. So I spent all my time looking at different parts of healthcare, looking for places that that needed a different solution, and stumbled across kidney care. It really came up because my brother is was doing a rotation. He’s a surgeon. He was doing a rotation through a transplant department, and he told me a patient story about one of his patients that’s probably similar to some of your friends that have, that have gone through this experience, and it just exposed me to the challenges these patients face and what is a very difficult, very complicated disease state, and in the traditional kidney care system, you know, in a lot of ways, nowhere is healthcare at its worst, for these patients, who have a lot of different diseases, are really struggling with a very difficult condition, and are usually left to fend for themselves, to navigate a complicated healthcare journey, figure out how to pay for it, you know, visits upon visits with all sorts of specialists, all sorts of different clinical touch points, and These patients are often left to kind of navigate this on their own. So I started to get very interested in that problem. Spoke a lot of patients, a lot of providers, and it’s one of those places in healthcare where you think, you know, this is the 21st century. There has to be a better way to do this. And so that that got the ball rolling on strive. And ultimately we launched drive to transform that experience for patients. Historically, kidney care, it happens too late. Most people, when you talk about kidney care, they think about transplants and they think about dialysis, yeah, but really, kidney care starts much, much earlier, and there’s a lot of opportunity to delay those kidney failure interventions avoid them altogether. If you can identify people proactively, there’s 37 million Americans who have some stage of kidney disease, and very, very few of them are diagnosed or aware at all that they have the disease, and oftentimes, more often than not, their disease progresses unaddressed until they have a kidney failure event and they’re starting to think about transplant or dialysis,

Karan Rhodes  09:26

But they don’t have symptoms. Why is it not diagnosed?

Will Stokes  09:30

That’s exactly the reason you know CKD is asymptomatic. It doesn’t hurt. No one is going to their doctor in the earlier stages of kidney disease saying, I think something’s wrong with my kidneys. They’re probably dealing with hypertension or maybe they have diabetes that they’re struggling with. Those are the conditions that are getting kind of the air time, but they’re also precursors to kidney disease, and ultimately, kidney failure. And so traditionally, kidney disease progresses undetected and patients have a surprise emergent kidney failure event, often called a dialysis crash, where they have a hospitalization event, they wake up on dialysis and are told that they’re going to spend the rest of our lives on dialysis, unless they you know, an off chance they can find a transplant. That is a bad clinical journey, we do not want that to happen for patients. And you know what? Really, where we turned a corner in the concept of strive, it’s very easy to spot problems in healthcare. It’s harder to find solutions. But in this case, these things are preventable. Is very there’s a lot of research, there’s a lot of clinical evidence, you know that demonstrates, if you follow best practice guidelines of early detection and management of chronic kidney disease, you can avoid these things altogether. But first and foremost, you got to identify patients, and you have to give them the support they need far ahead of of their kidney failure event. So we launched strive to do just that. Strive started as a clinical solution in building the company. And I think this is important in healthcare, it started first as what are we going to do for patients? How are we going to impact these people? Can we take care of people in a better way than they’re receiving care today? To me, that’s the first important hurdle to cross when launching a new solution or business in healthcare, does it add value to patients? Does it make our healthcare system better for people? Answer has to be yes. And then we all know in healthcare, payment is a mess. Companies got Medicare, employer sponsored insurance, got some services are self pay. So once you have a compelling clinical solution, you need to find a business model, you know, way, a way for this new innovation in healthcare to pay for itself. Because ultimately, if it’s going to be sustainable, it needs to have a business model that can support it. And in our case, value based care. This new idea of value based care is exactly that, and this is a trend in healthcare whereby companies like us or providers like us can get paid for the long term impact they have on patients health and ultimately a lower cost clinical journey. We keep patients out of the hospital. We keep them off dialysis. That saves the patient money. That saves the healthcare ecosystem money, and we get to share in that savings. So ultimately, we launched the business as a value based care company taking care of people with kidney disease in a much more proactive, preventative way, in a way that allows them to be more holistically managed, to slow their disease progression in a lot of cases, to avoid dialysis altogether.

Karan Rhodes  12:46

With That approach does that mean you partner more with physicians or healthcare entities to allow for more early diagnosis so you catch it earlier on and share cost of that.

Will Stokes  13:04

Yeah, that’s right. Partnership for us kind of works in two directions, as a value based care company. You know, first, we’re contracting with a payer, an insurance company, or CMS, in the Medicare population, the people who are responsible for health care costs, we partner with them and we take on the insurance risk in some form for our population of chronic kidney disease or end stage renal disease patients. That’s what gives us the incentive to make this population healthier and reduce their costs, we partner with the payer to take on the insurance risk so that we can share in the savings that we create by better clinical care. That gives us a population now that we’re responsible for taking care of, usually it’s 1000s of patients across a given state that we’re now responsible for caring for, yeah, once we have that partnership in place, then big part of our model is going out into the community and partnering with community providers, just just as you said, primary care physicians and nephrologists, who are the specialists that take care of Kidney Disease. In particular, we work with them, one to, as you said, identify these patients and help get them diagnosed timely, but then also to help coordinate care once we have a patient enrolled in our program, we want to be working in collaboration with these physicians. We don’t want to be working against each other. The biggest problems in healthcare, and particularly for these chronic kidney disease patients, it’s fragmentation of the healthcare system. They’ve got a PCP over here, a nephrologist over there. You know, they’re in a they’re enrolled in a transplant list at the local hospital. They have a cardiologist, yeah, fortunately, too often, none of those providers are talking to each other.

Karan Rhodes  14:59

Yes.

Will Stokes  15:00

So what that ends up with is a patient having a very clunky experience, one provider to the next, who’s left to manage all this on their own. Which medications am I supposed to be taking? Which appointment am I supposed to be going to next? Oftentimes, it’s a patient and their caregivers who are having to deal with all that stuff. We want to make that more simple for the patients, and we want to be a hub, really, for their clinical journey. We can help them across these different interaction points, and then give them a lot more clinical support in between all those visits. We do have things like a win, win. Has there been any pushback from any entities in working with you all no strong pushbacks dialysis companies often don’t like us getting engaged with patients ahead of ahead of the dialysis journey, if you will.

Karan Rhodes  15:49

I bet. It’s inevitable.

Will Stokes  15:50

Really, it’s a collaborative relationship across the ecosystem. I think in healthcare, oftentimes, kind of any new entrant is looked at with skepticism, and for good reason. These are very sick patients, and if I’m a nephrologist in the community, I don’t trust just anyone to get involved in the clinical care of my patient,

Karan Rhodes  16:11

Right.

Will Stokes  16:11

So we have to earn that trust as a new company in the space. And this is true in a lot of places in healthcare. For a new company, there’s a lot of trust building that has to occur. I can imagine credibility with providers, with partners for us, with the dialysis companies, with nephrologist primary care physicians, they need to trust that we’re going to be a value add for patients, that we’re going to do what we say we will do in terms of better support for these patients in coordinating care. So oftentimes there’s initial pushback, or I’d call it maybe initial skepticism, as we enter a new market, but more often than not, very quickly, as we start interacting with patients and really demonstrating what we can do for patients and how, not only does it help the patient, but it helps these other kind of clinical partners in the community. That’s when the bar really gets rolling and there’s very little pushback once we’ve kind of crossed that hurdle of, look, this really is a win win for all of us, and most importantly, the patient.

Karan Rhodes  17:08

That’s amazing. Gosh, I have so many questions trying to pick the best one. For I have learned being caregiver for various family members is sometimes helpful to be your own advocate as a patient as well, and meaning you take information and document everything and then if and ask questions and making sure that you’re getting the best care available out there. Do you have any tips for individuals who have a family member or may be suffering themselves on how they can be a better partner and patient in this whole process to ensure that their health care is top is top notch.

Will Stokes  17:54

Yep, health care is so personal, so to your to your point, and we, we very strongly believe this at strive, patients need to be in the driver’s seat of their own care, but often they need to be empowered to do that. Too often is our health care system just kind of throw in the book at patients. This is what you need to do. This is the guideline you should be following. Why are you eating that? You need to be taking this medication, and it’s pushed on patients, and that’s very challenging for patients to deal with. And one approach we take is kind of start with empowerment and education. We want patients and their caregivers to really understand the disease, right? What is it? What what can be the different outcomes? We want to give a very unbiased, kind of holistic view of of what they’re dealing with, and then, and then we try to understand a patient’s goals, individual goals. Not everyone has the same desires in life, the same activities they want to be able to do, the same priorities. And too often, healthcare kind of misses that part. And as a caregiver, to your question originally, I think very important to be clear with your kind of patient partner. What are we trying to solve for here? Is it certain activities you want to go to? Is it a certain milestone you want to you want to get to? Is it what do you want your life to look like? How do we start to fit your clinical needs into life goals, not just focus only on clinical goals. And I think once those things match, I think that’s where you often have really good, sustainable health care solutions, and a patient really engaged in their specific care plan. Too often we say, Here’s your here’s your treatment regimen, go do it right? But we haven’t considered what this person’s life’s like and what they want to accomplish if those things create friction against each other. You know, that’s where you see a lot of challenges with adherence. A patient gets frustrated, stops taking their medication, stops going to treatment, and that probably could have been solvable if we just considered consider those factors earlier. People talk a lot about social determinants of health and the kidney disease population. So often, maybe more often than not, it’s really social factors that are driving the disease, not the disease itself. It’s a transportation issue, lack of access to food, no caregiver support, and if you’re not paying attention to those things and solving those problems, it’s very hard to have a successful clinical plan. And so this is an approach strive takes. But I think it’s also true for a caregiver to really be thinking that way when, when helping something deal with a clinical journey, really trying to understand the non clinical part of the equation.

Karan Rhodes  20:32

Gosh, what you just said is pure gold, because a lot of folks are, they have a lot of emotions. They’re they’re overwhelmed, to your point with the whole processes. And I love their your approach of starting earlier with the education, having the support that you know companies like yours provides, and coordinating so that it doesn’t get or it slows it down before getting to the late stage where you’re really facing some major, major hurdles at that point. So is everyone assigned a caregiver, not care, I’m sorry, a case manager from your organization. Or how does that exactly work?

Will Stokes  21:14

That’s right. So every patient gets assigned to either a RN case manager, so a nurse who’s going to be the care manager for the for the most complex patients, they get assigned directly to a nurse practitioner. Those caregivers then are impaneled to those patients, which means they have a panel of, you know, 200 to 300 patients who they’re responsible for, and it’s and they, they then become sort of the go to for that patient in navigating a wide variety of issues and a lot of things those caregivers can address directly managed care, advice on medications, follow up from appointments. A nurse practitioner is doing home visits, creating a clinical plan, but we also offer a lot of other resources. We have a pharmacist on staff, we have dieticians, we have social workers. And different patients need different things. So our journey works in that we get engaged with a patient. They get assigned that caregiver. And really, our orientation is not again, not to just push a clinical protocol down to the patient. Okay, now that you’re talking to us. Do A, B, C, D, right, go forth and conquer. But really, it’s just a, how can we solve a problem for you, like, What? What? What’s getting in the way of you and your health? And oftentimes it’s has nothing to do with clinical it’s I don’t have I can’t get to my dialysis appointments. I don’t my nephew, you know, just took a job and can’t take me anymore, so I stopped going, or I really struggling figuring out what to eat right we often have caregivers asking us really trying to cook the right meals for for my you know, for my husband, for my wife, you know, so and so forth. But I just, I really don’t know what ingredients or what to use. So we’ll try to solve a problem first build trust and help prove to a patient that we’re there for them. You know, we’re an ally in this healthcare journey. You know, we can be a resource for you if you if you work with us. We try to solve a problem for them that’s top of mind to them. And then we start educating them on the disease, the realities of kidney disease, the clinical care plan. That’s very important to accomplish, but we don’t want to push that too fast and create any kind of abrasion with the patient. We really want to earn the trust, build the relationship, demonstrate to a patient that we’re there to help and we’re there to support them, not just run our own clinical agenda, agenda, and then that that buys us the trust to then start guiding their clinical journey with them. Love that, that and is this mostly US based, all US based we’re delivering here in all 50 states, took us, took us five, six years to get to that point.

Karan Rhodes  23:58

I bet! Congratulations, though, outstanding that’s fantastic.

Will Stokes  24:03

Absolutely.

Karan Rhodes  24:03

Wow. Do you find, or do your your teams, find more challenges in more rural areas that they may not have as many, I guess, options or support right down the road where they that they’re not close to a bigger city that might have absolutely capability. Yeah,

Will Stokes  24:22

Absolutely. So we deliver a very hands on clinical experience for patients. We’re doing in person visits in the home. We have a few office locations here and there, so we like to do as much face to face, hands on, as we can. But in those rural areas there’s, there might be one patient, and you know, 20 square miles, that’s really hard to have deliver that same kind of high touch experience for that patient. And to your point, there’s also in those areas, there’s often a broader lack of healthcare resources. So we work very hard to kind of reach that patient, and we do it in a variety of different ways. depending on the geography, we have a very robust kind of virtual care program and telehealth program where we can do busy video visits in the home, sometimes facilitated by another clinical resource that we can send into the home, sometimes just direct, direct to the patient. We also have a travel program. You know, nurses will kind of move around from different parts of the state, one to the next, and it’ll be, you know, strive day and in a given county or town, and that helps us get people out there, you know, nearby, to still deliver that kind of person to person experience for patients, but still give us some ability to kind of cover a lot of ground. And that’s one of the big, big big challenges in general, to scale in healthcare. So much in healthcare has to be done person to person, or is best done person to person. But you know, you still got to deal with geography, and sometimes it’s challenging to make that, you know, person to person connection, especially in those rural areas that have they’re just less dense.

Karan Rhodes  25:59

Yeah, that makes a tennis cent. So if there was a magic health, healthcare Genie that would give you one wish, any wish you want to help move the needle in the kidney space and healthcare, what would that wish be from you? That’d be a tough one.

Will Stokes  26:17

I think for us, the biggest problem in kidney care is the identification or original diagnosis of this disease. So if we could just if everyone that had kidney disease could just know in that moment, I’ve got CKD stage three, I’ve got D kitty stage two, that would solve so much of the problem overnight, because, again, back so much of the problem in kidney care is, is finding people who are who are dealing with this disease, who have it, and getting them engaged in in the right treatment plan. And we do a lot of work to try to try to solve that problem. But if you could, if you could wave your wine and accurately diagnose all the patients out there, we’d be way down the road…

Karan Rhodes  27:02

So you know what you’re working with.

Will Stokes  27:03

Of solving this, solving this problem.

Karan Rhodes  27:06

Absolutely well, we’ll just have to work on that genie. We’ll just try to get to that wish. But yeah, I definitely understand that. Well, I can’t believe we blinked and then and time has really quickly passed by. Could talk to you for hours, will but we can’t let you get out of here without answering our signature question. As you know, our firm did a lot of research on leadership execution, and we wrote a book about our findings, and there are seven main buckets that are always critical to any leadership effort, whether no matter if you’re an individual contributor or a leader, and you were so kind to share that leading with strategic decision making really resonated with you, and for my new listeners out there, strategic decision making is just what it sounds like. It’s making good decisions yourself and or leading a good decision making process with a team or people that you’re working with in order to meet strategic goals and priorities. So curious minds want to know will Why do you think strategic decision making is very important?

Will Stokes  28:11

Yeah, it really resonated with me, particularly for a early stage high growth company. You’re making decisions all the time that are defining the long term trajectory of the business. These are very dynamic businesses, and you’re making these decisions often on imperfect data. We’re doing something new. We don’t know everything about how it might play out, if not perfect data on A versus B, more often than not, in an early stage company like this. So just the amount of time we’re spending making these kind of long term strategic decisions, it’s almost daily. And so strength in that area is critical. And I think, to me, oftentimes strategic decision making, a lot of folks think that’s about being right, making the right decision. And one of my mottos is being right is not the hard part. It’s really about the execution. And especially in an organization, you need people to sign up for that decision and be able to carry it forward, to really align to it, to understand why to buy into it. So you can have theoretically wrong decision with the right buy in, and it’s going to work out better than the theoretically right decision with no buy in. So in a strategic decision making process, again, we’re doing this all the time as a high growth organization. The organization is changing all the time, changing direction, evolving, you know, making decisions, and if the company is is getting left behind, is not bought into that that decision making process, so much cultural breakage, and you can’t accomplish your goals. That’s right, these people, you need the whole company kind of moving, moving together as much as possible. And that’s such a challenge. We don’t get it right every day. At strive, you, we try to get it right more often than not. But this is a daily a daily challenge.And again, I think this is strategic decision making. It’s It’s not about being right, it’s not about getting the perfect answer. It’s really about the other people around that decision and impacted by that decision. Can you, can you have good process to build buy in, to build understanding, so that then once a decision is made, you can actually go do something about it as a big organization.

30:23

Listeners,

Karan Rhodes  30:23

Listeners, if you don’t remember anything else from this podcast, you need to listen to that last two minutes again. Friend, well, that was perfect, because you’re not going to be able to be right all the time, but you can’t be willy nilly as well. You have to make the best decisions you can. I always say it’s calculated risk, right? You take all the data that you know, you take the perspectives, the insights, your experience, your team’s experience, and you all make the best decision you can based on those facts and data, and keep moving forward. And I think for leaders, if things change or switch or don’t go as expected, you have to continue to tell the story to your team so that they can be brought along on the journey. And you might have to pivot or something, but just make sure that your communication is extremely clear. That’s Karan, little add on too, Will, but definitely go back and listen to Will. All right, well, Will, unfortunately, that’s all the time we have for today. We’ll have a lot of information in the show notes about Strive, your bio as well. But I always love to give just a few seconds to our guests to share where people can find out more about Strive and possibly you.

Will Stokes  31:39

Yeah, absolutely. Folks to our website, srivehealth.com.

Karan Rhodes  31:43

Nice.

Will Stokes  31:43

Talks about what we’re doing for patients, has all the latest news about the company and the partnerships we’re doing, the impact we’re having on patients. So it’s a great resource to figure out more about Strive and start to learn more about this value based kidney care thing. So head there if interested.

Karan Rhodes  31:59

Okay, wonderful. Well, thanks you so much will for joining us today. We really appreciate your gift of time and your insights. It’s been fantastic.

Will Stokes  32:09

Absolutely thanks for having me. Karan,

Karan Rhodes  32:11

Oh, awesome. And thank you to listeners for joining in to another episode. We know that you literally have millions of other podcasts that you could be listening to, and we don’t take your patronage lightly at all. Please make sure that you subscribe and follow us on your favorite podcast platform of choice, and please just share the podcast with just one friend, because by doing so, it’ll help us all get better at leading at the top of our own games. Thanks so much, and see you next week. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.