Episode 106 | The Keys to Growth on Purpose with Claire Chandler

Claire Chandler  00:00

Most people mistakenly believe that they’re alone, that these challenges that they have are so unique to them that no one else has ever solved them, and therefore they won’t either. And that’s not just an organizational myth. That’s a leadership myth.

Voiceover  00:04

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:36

Hello, my secret stars. Welcome to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast. Well, you are in for a treat today, because, you know, very rarely do I bring back guests, but I had such a fabulous time with this particular guest, and she has some new and exciting work that she has put out into the world, I had to have her back. So for my long timers, I want and even for your new people, go back and look at episode 46 and you will find my first interview with Claire Chandler. And hopefully for my long time, as you remember, we had such a great conversation, and I was super excited to bring her back. But for my newbies, Claire is the president and founder of Talent Boost, which is a consulting firm that helps businesses align their HR and talent strategies in order to achieve massive growth. And Claire has recently published a new book, which is a fantastic framework, but the book is called growth on purpose, and so I invited Claire back to share more about what’s going on with her company the book give us updates and leave us with some nuggets of insights from this fantastic new book that you’ve got to get. And we’ll have links in the show notes to let you know where it is, but thank you so much, Claire, for being willing to come back on the podcast.

Claire Chandler  02:07

Oh, are you kidding me, Karan?  Thank you so much for having me. I, as you already said, we had such a great conversation the first time around so I am honored to be welcomed to your stage. So thank you great to be here.

Karan Rhodes  02:19

Oh, we did. We did. We had a blast. I think, if I remember correctly, we ran out of time. We were like, Oh my gosh, we got to do this again.

Claire Chandler  02:26

We did, yep.

Karan Rhodes  02:28

Well, you know, there’s a lot of new people to the podcast since this last time you were so gracious to view one of our more early guests. So they’re, we’re so proud of the expansion we’ve had with the podcast. So if you don’t mind sharing just a sneak peek into your personal life outside of work so that they can get a feel for who Miss Claire really is.

Claire Chandler  02:49

Yes, absolutely. So I am a lifelong Jersey girl, so I live right along the coast in New Jersey. I hesitate to call it Jersey Shore, because we know that show that kind of tarnished it forever, but that’s fine. But yes, lifelong Jersey girl, proud survivor of corporate America, proud survivor of cancer, have have leaned into both of those experiences to help shape the person that I am happily married to my fabulous husband, who quite recently has joined me as a partner in the business. Yes, he was always sort of a silent partner cheerleader behind the scenes. He has recently left corporate America as well. So we have joined forces, and, yeah, we get to be partners in everything now. So since we last spoke, there have been some some exciting developments in growth for me, personally and through the book and certainly with the business. So I’m excited to talk about all the things with you.

Karan Rhodes  03:50

Absolutely that is amazing. We were talking in our pre chat about, you know, how our paths have been kind of similar and kind of birthing our businesses and trying to get you know our knowledge out in the world to really help people in organizations. And similar to you, my husband’s um, the best cheerleader behind the scenes. But I’m gonna be honest with you, I don’t know we could work together, because we have two totally different work styles.

Claire Chandler  04:16

It’s so interesting because, as we have been talking with clients and prospective clients. And we mentioned that not only are we business partners, but we’re, you know, we’re married, we’re life partners, we get that same reaction. It’s like, you’re gonna have to explain to me how you make that work. It’s like, okay, but full disclosure, it’s still early days, so maybe you want to come on for episode three. I’m going to be like, Karan, I don’t know, like, Oh, we’re still in a honeymoon period, but now I’m in all in all seriousness, I’m I’m excited. I think it’s gonna be a wonderful thing.

Karan Rhodes  04:46

I think it is well as well. I think we all have probably figured out unlocked the key to making sure it happens. And if he’s even one, 100 as wonderful as you are, I’m sure you all make it worth fine.

Claire Chandler  04:58

Oh. Thank you.

Karan Rhodes  04:59

Well, let’s start clear by reminding our listeners just a little bit more about the focus of Talent Boost and what types of services that you offer and what types of clients do you target?

Claire Chandler  05:12

Absolutely. So we are an executive leadership advisory I sort of joke that it’s that’s the official category of our business, but really we provide leadership therapy, and so I’m not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist by any stretch, but for some reason, our clients always come back around and sort of say, why is it that conversations with you feel like a therapy session? And it’s not because I make them all cry, certainly, but it is because being someone who had been within the walls of corporate America for about 20 years of my career, I can not just deeply empathize with the situations that they face and the struggles that they have on their road toward more sustainable growth, but I’ve seen the light at the end of their tunnel. I have seen ways to pull them through and pull them up and pull them forward. And so it’s, it’s that work that, you know, I really enjoy with them, specifically what that looks like. It is a combination of leadership and talent development. So working with the executive leaders in a growing organization, mostly within the HR space, but not exclusive to just HR executives. And having been a former HR executive myself, I you know, these are my people, right? So I can relate to them quite quite quickly. And so helping them, their teams, their organizations, grow in a more sustainable way through the strength of their talent, rather than dilute the deep, magnetic nature of their own culture, the strength of their leadership, the dynamics of their teams as they grow and so up to this point, it has been pretty exclusively around the talent development, organizational design space. Now, with the entrance of my partner, my business partner slash life partner, we now have sort of this one plus one equals three value proposition, because he comes from more of an operational and growth area of expertise. And so now we can, we still target the same ideal audience, right, executive leaders of large growing organizations, but now we have, I think more of a 123, punch in terms of what we can do to help those organizations grow and in a more predictable, reliable way,

Karan Rhodes  07:28

That’s what. And who doesn’t need it these days, with the dynamics that are going on in the workplace and the geopolitical dynamics. I mean, you know, they definitely need a confidant to kind of work through a lot of those challenges, I’m sure. Yeah, well, let’s dive in, if you don’t mind, because I want to make sure we leave enough time to go in depth about your new book growth. On purpose, we’d love to understand the origin story of how it came about and how you came up with the the framework you talk about. And we don’t want to you do give it all away, but if you can give us the nugget to Yeah, about the framework and and the services you offer around it, let’s spend some time on that.

Claire Chandler  08:13

Yeah, I would love to. So this, as you said, is my latest book. It came out a couple of months ago. I have, I have written books in the past all around business, all around strengthening culture, strengthening teams, helping leaders to show up in more authentic ways. But this book was a little bit different, because it really is a deep dive, exploration of the methodology that I have developed and evolved and honed over the years, not just exclusively, as I have been a consultant and an advisor to corporate, but even during my days in corporate. And I’m sure you relate to this, when you come out of corporate to do more advisory from the outside, looking in, you don’t abandon everything that you did or that you learned or that you experienced. You actually pull that forward in ways that give you a perspective and help you to accelerate the learning curve of your clients. Absolutely so over the years, between my corporate experience and my consulting experience, there have been best practices. There have been common pain points, there have been common paths toward more predictable growth, and when I really sort of looked back, I realized that those best practices, the more that I have honed and evolved them and sort of moved them forward in my client work, the more they come back to four main pillars of that methodology. And so this was really a deeper exploration for me, because I wanted to, I mean, like anyone would, I want to try to get that message out to as many people as possible, right? Because there’s only one of me. My company is only so big, there are only so many clients that we can help at any given time, right? It’s one of those like, these secrets are too good to not to share, right? Feel. These are methodologies. These are challenges and struggles and hopes and dreams that so many people in these organizations have. So if I can’t get the opportunity to work with every single one of them, I want to at least share what I know, share what I know has worked with people who are going through those same headaches and heartaches throughout the country and throughout the world,

Karan Rhodes  10:21

Absolutely, and it’s fantastic, and it’s so needed, because there are so many ways put on and say you’re usually not the first person to get going through a challenge, but finding others that have and have navigated successfully is tough because you just don’t know. It’s not a lot of things that we share, especially when we’re going through specific challenges at work. So for you to be able to share some of those insights with those so they with people so they’re struggling less, boy what an impact that makes.

Claire Chandler  10:53

You know, and it’s, it’s so interesting that that was that you went there immediately. Because I do find that to be true. I mean, as I said, one of the reasons I wrote the book was to try to get this message and this methodology out to as many people as possible. But the other reason for that is exactly what you just said, which is most people mistakenly believe that they’re alone, that these challenges that they have are so unique to them that no one else has ever solved them, and therefore they won’t either. And that’s not just an organizational myth. That’s a leadership myth. It’s no accident that people sort of, we talk about, it’s an executive leadership advisory but really it’s leadership therapy. It’s because so many clients do sort of say, you know, why is it that every conversation feels like it’s a therapy session with you. Yeah, because you you do convince yourself, as a leader, especially in the executive wing, that you’re alone. There is this isolation that most leaders, and I’m going to say most, because I don’t get to work with everybody, but every leader I’ve ever worked with feels isolated, right? They feel like their problems are unique. They feel like the questions to which they do not have answers that they’re the only one who hasn’t figured it all out. Yeah, and there’s this sort of peer pressure at the executive level, not to acknowledge and not to admit what you don’t know or what you might fear. That’s right? So it’s the other driver for this type of a book is to really signal to every leader at every level in any organization, you’re not alone. Your problems are not that unique. And I promise you, the more that you share those problems, the faster you’re going to get to a solution.

Karan Rhodes  12:35

Absolutely. And you know, we were sharing, we have similar journeys with what I’m trying to share insights out of my research and experiences in my book as well, but really quickly, I have a few pages in my book that talks about a story where there was a executive leader C suite level that I was working with, and they were so frustrated. And I don’t know, I kind of have that talent too. People just talk to me about everything. Would not know me very well. Sometimes they just feel comfortable enough to share. And I do feel like I’m offering therapy. It’s sometimes, but they were like, talk me off the ledge. Am I the only one that’s like this? And I can’t show vulnerability to my peers because, you know, it’s a very intensive, you know, leadership world, and so I think what we do pretty well, you and I are creating a space of psychological safety for leaders to be able to have a confidant have those conversations and realize that they’re not out there alone, and that there are ways to tackle it, so whatever they’re going through. So I think those are gifts that both of us seem to have, but and it’s so needed so much out there in the world. Because you’re right. I’ve never met a leader that was so fully confident that they knew everything that they needed to know, you know, in the world, to do their jobs flawlessly. Everybody has vulnerabilities,

Claire Chandler  14:05

Yeah, well, and it’s so interesting just hearing you share that, you know, I think one of the I want to front load this conversation with one, one nugget that really kind of stands out to me and is sort of shouting in my head right now, sure, you know, which is sort of the difference between really effective, successful leaders and the ones who struggle. And for me, a hallmark of effective leaders is that they seek feedback. The best leaders are the ones who will say, up front, I don’t know everything, and I need to know, how can I do my job more effectively? And in contrast, the least successful, the least effective, the least followable, are the ones who will not accept feedback. And so you know, for all of your listeners, and I know there are many, many, many of them, that’s something that they can start to practice more and more every day, even if they already are in a habit of seeking out feedback. Double down on that. Yeah, and if they don’t, you know, one of the greatest ways that you can sort of build a following among your employees and really build more of a human connection is to genuinely ask them, What can I be doing differently? What can I be doing better? Yeah, right. It’s such a little thing, and so many leaders don’t do it, but that, to me, is a big sign of an effective leader.

Karan Rhodes  15:21

It’s huge. And if I can Yes, and if I can add on to that yes, and add to that request some kind of statement that that lets them know that you’re giving them permission to share good, bad or ugly, and this is still a safe space for them to do that, because it’s one thing to ask, but if they think that there’s going to be some kind of retaliation or impact, if they give constructive feedback, then people seem to hold back. But if you really want to learn, and feedback is such a gift. It is such a gift to get that and understand others perspectives so that you can know or course correct, if needed, just make sure that you create that space to let them know that it’s okay if it’s not glowing.

Claire Chandler  16:06

So true, such a great point, because I am sure there are people in your audience also who heard that and said, I’m afraid to give my leader feedback. What he or she says, Yes, I welcome feedback, but really they’re sort of like waiting to slap you for it, right, right? So, yeah, it has to be genuine. You as a leader, have to actually seek it out, be genuine about receiving it, and regardless of what the nature of the feedback is, take it as the gift that you just said that it was because I could not agree with you more, and see it as an opportunity to be a better human, because we only get so much time on this earth. Yeah, spend this time being a better human.

Karan Rhodes  16:48

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, can you give us a highlight of the framework to write about in growth for purpose?

Claire Chandler  16:57

Yeah, absolutely. I’ll give you kind of the punchline, and then we can sort of unpack it as deeply as you want to go, or as long as the time will allow. But you know, for for me, and this is something that leaders need to, need to deeply understand as well, leaders over complicate every single aspect of business. I know I do. I’m a business owner now, right? I’ve been for for quite some time, but even when I was a leader of teams, we tend to overthink. We tend to over complicate. And because of that, we tend not to take the first step forward, not until it’s too late, but we kind of delay it. And, you know, we make it a bigger thing than it, than it needs to be. And if I could simplify for every leader, what their employees need, it comes down to four things. The first is, they need a reason to believe, right? They need to understand that the company that they’re going to join, or the company that they make a fresh decision every single day, whether they’re willing to stay with or not, has to be one that is pursuing something that employees can get behind. And so they need that reason to believe. The second thing they need is a place to belong. We are really in a a wonderfully complex and amazing time in the evolution of the modern workplace culture where people do not stay in one company, in one job, working on the same team from start to finish, right? They’re kind of passing through your organization. And so for whatever time that they’re going to be there, they are seeking a community. And it’s not all about a community of like minded people, but they should be of like, meaning people, right? So they should be people who, if we’re going to spend time together, we’re going to enjoy that experience. So people in there, the third thing they need is they need the space to break stuff. And what I mean by that is there are way too many organizations that promise that you can fail forward, that there’s a tolerance for mistakes that there. This is the one I love, that they hire people who have an entrepreneurial spirit the first time they walk a little bit out of the norm where they bring up an idea that’s a little bit far afield, they’re sort of, you know, mandated back to conformity. Yeah, employees need the space to break stuff, to question the status quo, to give constructive criticism when it’s asked for and even when it’s not. And do that in ways that sort of break down silos and break down this us versus them and really gets people to think more creatively and more innovatively, because that’s the only way that you’re going to outpace your competition. That’s right. I need the space to break stuff, and then the fourth thing is they need a future that they can buy into and build. Right? I talk to too many leaders. I talk to too many private equity investors who all kind of say the same thing, and they say, We have this brilliant growth strategy. We know exactly where we need to be three years from now, five years from now. And for some reason, our employees are digging their heels in, and they’re resisting at every turn. And the reason for that is quite simple, they were not invited in on the process for building that roadmap to the future that try it. And when you bring people in, and you include them in the conversation, and maybe they are not going to be the ones who architect the strategy, but if you set the vision in the future horizon, but you invite them in to say, what is the best way to get there, what will make your job easier? How do we make a stronger connection between what you care about and our shared mission? You’re going to start to build that connective tissue that is absolutely essential if you’re going to achieve the growth strategy. Because the leaders in the C suite are not the ones who execute the strategy. No people on the ground, right? And if they don’t buy into it, and they don’t get it, and they don’t see how, what their individual role, how that contributes to the bigger picture. It doesn’t matter how brilliant your growth strategy is, right? So they need a future that they can buy into and build. So it’s, it’s those four needs, and the leaders in the organizations who can create a place in a space that fulfills those four needs are going to grow exponentially.

Karan Rhodes  20:59

You know what, Claire, I just feel we need to go on a road show you and I on a tour, because your framework is the perfect setup for my framework. My research is all on leadership execution. So to your point, the C suite come up with the vision and the high level strategy, but they’re not the executors work the organization is, and too many times they’ll send a memo or talk about it in a town hall and just think it’s going to automatically be executed at the level that they’re wanting it to be. And while they may the workforce may understand the concept, it really boils down for each employee to understand. What does that mean for me, and how do I personally contribute? And as I’m executing, how do I handle those roadblocks along the way? Who is there to help me when it’s not going perfectly, because I can’t go to the C suite, I may or may not feel comfortable going to my manager. I’m just doing the best I can every day. And so what why try to do, and our team tries to do, is to help individuals understand the best ways to go about executing given the vision and direction that their leadership teams have given them, and how to increase the probability for success. So it is just, I think the two frameworks are so powerful,

Claire Chandler  22:29

I’m ready to go on the road. Let’s, let’s do it.

Karan Rhodes  22:33

Let me call up Oprah and Gail…

Claire Chandler  22:37

I love it. Let’s do it

Karan Rhodes  22:38

We’ll have a new team that they can help promote, but anyhow, not to take your glory, but I it just that connection,

Claire Chandler  22:46

No! You just amplified it, are you kidding me? I love it!

Karan Rhodes  22:49

Oh, my God, it’s amazing. So I love that. So I, you know, I always feverishly take notes when we’re doing um, podcasts, because I learned so much. So um, let me make sure I got this correct. You said the the four keys are you have to give your workforce a reason to believe, a place to belong, a place space to break stuff, and a feature that they can buy in and build. That’s right, right? That’s right. That is so powerful. That is so

Claire Chandler  23:17

It’s simple, but not easy, right? I get that. I get that your audience is going Weren’t you just saying that those are easy? I never said it was gonna be easy.

Karan Rhodes  23:25

No. It’s easier said than done.

Claire Chandler  23:27

Yeah, but I just think so many leaders in so many organizations over complicate that they’re like, Well, what do our employees need? We do these surveys, and we do these 90 day new hire feedback loops, and we do performance management, we do exit interviews. And it’s like I was having a conversation with a head of talent couple weeks ago, and he was sort of lamenting that, he said, but we do all these surveys. We do an annual engagement survey, we do pulse surveys, we do new hire surveys, we do training surveys after every workshop, we do exit surveys. And I said, but does the same person, the same team, with the same comparable data, line all of that up and weave together the story throughout the employee life cycle, right? Because if you only look at those at discrete points and as one offs, you’re missing the story. You’re missing what they’ve been trying to tell you for whatever amount of time they stay in your organization. That’s right, and I haven’t found any organization that has solved that piece yet, and I’m not a data expert, so hopefully there’s someone in your audience who’s listening to that and going, I can build a better dashboard. The person who hears this and says, I will build the dashboard that weaves together all of those pulse checks into a narrative that we can actually act upon is going to be a billionaire, a trillionaire. Hey, you tell it, yeah. I mean, that’s the magic right there.

Karan Rhodes  24:48

And you know, to give an analogy to your point, um, you know, when we go for to the doctor, one blood test at one time will not tell the point. Story of Your Health. That’s right, it is annual checkups and other and other tests that will build the story of your overall level of health. It’s not just one and to your point, if you can put all the data points together to weave the wet red thread throughout the mall to get a full picture of the organization and what they’re wanting, desiring, needing, where things need to probably be broken and reconfigured, that that would be so powerful. So I also put it out there to my eyes, because there are quite a few HR and people leaders out there, if you come up with a dashboard, read it and reach out, because we really would love to see it and

Claire Chandler  25:46

Listen. I have a, I’m going to say a Rolodex, which is going to date me, but I have a laundry list of clients who are begging for that type of

Karan Rhodes  25:54

There you go. sounds like a business opportunity,

Claire Chandler  25:57

But I’m smirking, because when you said, you know, one blood test is not going to give you all the answers. As somebody who’s who’s gone through cancer, and, like, I’m no stranger to specialists on my, you know, on my speed dial, and there’s constantly, like, checkups and whatever, in the medical field too, there’s no one test that’s going to lead to the exact right diagnosis or an exact right treatment plan for the solution, right, right? A lot of times, you’re going through scans, you’re going through lab work, you’re going through MRIs or what have you first to exclude, right, to kind of rule out things. And I think that’s part of what we also need to be doing, is getting a little bit more discerning with the data that we collect. That’s right, so that it’s not just, let’s pile it on and let’s just put it all into a big mixing bowl and hope that it spits out the correct diagnosis. Really use some of that data to to narrow down our decision making. That’s because we do over complicate things.

Karan Rhodes  26:50

We do, we do it doesn’t have to be that difficult. It really doesn’t. I cannot believe time has gone by so quickly. Claire, you got to come back up for a third time

Claire Chandler  27:00

Let’s do it!

Karan Rhodes  27:00

We’ve just gotta do this.

Claire Chandler  27:02

Well, at the very least, we have to sync up our travel schedule, because, you know, Oprah and Gail are not gonna wait on us forever. So

Karan Rhodes  27:09

Not at all. Well before we go a couple things. I’m assuming there’s a whole opportunity around your book, meaning consultations and interventions and workshops. Am I correct? Can you share just a tad about that?

Claire Chandler  27:25

Yes, first step that anybody can take is the easiest. So while that other stuff I talked about was not easy, this one’s super, super easy because it’s free and it takes about five minutes. Your listeners go to growthonpurpose.com.

Karan Rhodes  27:40

Okay,

Claire Chandler  27:41

They can take a growth on purpose assessment, slash scorecard, answer several questions. They’re mostly yes or no. In less than five minutes, they will get a really good health checkup on their ability to actually grow their business in a sustainable way. There’s also an opportunity on that website to order a copy of the book growth on purpose, if they would like that. Or, since it’s your audience, and I just appreciate you more than I can ever express, if they reach out to me directly and they would like a free copy of the book, I am more than happy to send that to them.

Karan Rhodes  28:14

Oh, that would be wonderful. Thank you so much. Claire,  You’re so generous in giving and listeners, if you don’t take her up on that, Boy, are you missing an opportunity, because we don’t get a lot of these fantastic quality insights and work for for free. It’s very, very rare, but just don’t get it, read it, learn more about it, and then reach out to Claire to understand how to bring some of those insights to the organization. Because while it sounds fantastic, as she has mentioned, it’s kind of difficult, and she and her team have the expertise to kind of help you build a strategy, help you implement some fantastic interventions, and help you see an ROI on your investment. So definitely take her up on that. And you know, Claire, I cannot let you go without you sharing. You know, our signature question for our guests is to talk about the buckets that we choose. One of the buckets that we write about in our book, lead at the top of your game, and the one that really resonated with you was leading with courageous agility. And for my new people, if you remember, leading with courageous ability is all about having the courage and the fortitude to take calculated risks. So take the data, understand as much as you can, but take calculated risks and still move forward. Take baby steps forward, even if the future is uncertain or unclear, and so Claire, can you remind us why courageous agility is so important of a bucket to upskill yourself in

Claire Chandler  28:17

Of course! Absolutely so as as you know and as you reminded me, your longtime listeners may remember that this is the same bucket that really resonated with me all the buckets resonate. This one jumped out then, and it does now. I think for me, courageous agility is is equal parts moving forward in the right direction, but also knowing what to let go. And I one of the reasons that I am, you know, an advisor slash leadership therapist, is because I can relate to everything I’m saying to my clients, right? Because I’ve been there as well, and I know that one of the biggest challenges is taking on too much, saying yes to everything, at the expense of draining ourselves. And you know, as the saying goes, we can’t refill, or we can’t fill from an empty cup. That’s right. So courageous agility, to me as well, is not just knowing where to pivot and where to change and where to flex next. It’s also about letting go of that which does not serve you anymore. And I kind of think of like the visual of a hot air balloon, right? There are those sandbags that are wrapped around the basket that keep tethered on the ground, and as you start to let them go, the load gets lighter and you start to ascend. And I think that’s really the only way to do it. So when I hear courageous agility, that’s what comes up for me.

Karan Rhodes  31:06

You know, I’m just gonna drop the mic on that one, that one, what a fantastic analogy the hot air balloon, and then I will see, you know, I’m always a yes and person Yes. And there are times to your point when you might need to put a sandbag or two back on to ground yourself again to get ready for the next flight. So that’s right. Show clear Well, thank you so much, Claire, for the gift of your time, your willingness to come back on the podcast, and you might have to be my first third invitee back. I’m just saying it up front.

Claire Chandler  31:45

I humbly accept any time I love it. I love all our conversations, and I really appreciate you. So thank you for that.

Karan Rhodes  31:51

Oh, we appreciate you too, and we appreciate you too listeners for joining the episode. And as I always say, I know there are literally millions of other podcasts out there that you could be listening to, and we do not take your patronage lightly. All that we ask is that you please like and subscribe to our podcast and just share the podcast with just one friend, because by doing so, it’ll help us all to better lead at the top of our game. Thank you so much, and see you next week.  And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.