Episode 114 | Turn Work Into Your Own Leadership Learning Lab with Jessica Hartung

Jessica Hartung  00:00

So what I’ve realized is that, as an owner of a business who had people to train and myself to train, is that actually we can use the conditions of work to create a learning laboratory for our leadership. It’s not hard to do it requires three things, and as awareness, willingness and skill.

Voiceover  00:05

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:36

Hello, superstars. Welcome back to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast. I am just truly pleased to have on today’s show a fantastic guest who actually is a fellow contributor, just as I am to forbes.com via the Forbes coaches Council, as well as she’s good friends, we have similar networks. And I just was just so thrilled that she agreed to come aboard today. Her name is Jessica Hartung, and she is an entrepreneur and executive mentor and the author of the book The conscious Professional –  Transform  Your Life at Work. And when I knew about her book and learned more indefinitely about her professional background and the passion she has about empowering people to be their best selves in a very conscious and meaningful way, you know, I had to snag her and get her on the podcast, because I know we can all learn something from her. So welcome to the show, Jessica,

Jessica Hartung  01:40

Thank you. Thank you, Karan. I’m really thrilled to be here and so delighted about our common perspectives and background. You know, it just feels like we’ve been looking at things and observing them for many years and come to some similar conclusions.

Karan Rhodes  01:56

Absolutely, absolutely. And I can’t wait to dive into them as well, but before we do so, one of the things we always love to learn is just a little bit about our guests with their in their lives outside of work. So for just as much as you feel comfortable, can you give us a sneak peek into your life and or family outside of work?

Jessica Hartung  02:15

Oh sure. Well, I’m in Boulder, Colorado, and one of my favorite things to do is get out in the morning. I have a little Corgi as my first ever dog I got in my 50s, and I had never had a pet like that before. And so we’ve been walking in the mornings and the sunrise, and I say that is just really sets me up for a day. And as we were walking, we’ve been doing this for a couple of years, I started to notice the landscapes. They look so beautiful. And I was very surprised, because inside my internal voice said, You need to weave that.

Karan Rhodes  02:51

Uh huh.

Jessica Hartung  02:52

And I thought, I don’t know how to weave.

Karan Rhodes  02:56

But you can learn!

Jessica Hartung  02:56

I learned. I learned. I now weave and weave landscapes and other tapestry weaving. And so it was a wonderful way to use the creativity, the beauty of this location and my connection with, you know, getting out in the morning, and to have something that’s lasting and something that’s creative, and it really fills my bucket.

Karan Rhodes  03:19

Oh, that is wonderful. Well, first of all, welcome to the pet parent family. They they truly make a difference in our lives. And I’m a little jealous of you being in Boulder, because it is absolutely gorgeous. Excuse me, I’ve visited there many times, but I understand why you fell in love with walking and enjoying the landscape so and then the other thing I was going to tease you about is, you know, based here in Atlanta, and so if you say the word snow or ice, we all freeze. But…We just, you know, had a small dusting a few days ago and survived. Thank goodness, yes, but it’s gorgeous. So

Jessica Hartung  04:00

And you know, I think that’s sitting inside the house looking out at the freezing cold when you know, as those days, you don’t feel like you want to go out in it. But I got into the habit of just putting on the shoes, putting on the coat, getting the dog going out and any weather is beautiful when you’re out in it and enjoying it,

Karan Rhodes  04:19

It’s usually just the first maybe calmness that hits when you first step out. Yeah. So, like you said, once you get going and you’re out there, yeah, your body adapts, and then you just appreciate the surroundings. So

Jessica Hartung  04:31

Yeah, so thanks for asking.

Karan Rhodes  04:32

Well, thank you so much for sharing that.

Jessica Hartung  04:34

I will also, umm mentioned that I’m 35 years married.

Karan Rhodes  04:38

Oh! Congratulations!

Jessica Hartung  04:39

I have a wonderful Husband, astrophysicist. And one of the things that’s interesting, you know, in terms of that personal and professional, I’ve always felt that how we grow professionally impacts our personal lives, and how we grow personally impacts our you know, the quality of our leadership. I guess I feel that watching my husband go through a career change and then getting his PhD at 52 then he went and has since gone on to his science career. It was really important, because transform your life at work is the promise of that book and the promise of the book that The Conscious Professional is really about. Can you shape your work life to suit you and be productive and successful. And I watched my husband do it. And, you know, of course, I was playing a small role as well as a coach on the side

Karan Rhodes  05:31

Sure, of course. And he was lucky to have such a wonderful and beautiful inside coach to help him as well.

Jessica Hartung  05:39

Yeah.

Karan Rhodes  05:40

Well, I, you know, really would love for us to kind of talk a little bit about your journey. And, you know, speaking of career and pivoting and and learning from all of your experiences, would you mind sharing with us at a high level of your professional career, whether you had any corporate experience and then what, how did what was your entrepreneurial journey like?

Jessica Hartung  06:03

Well, you know, it’s so interesting. Thank you for asking that question, and I’ll try and use a long journey, but short words. I was at the University of Michigan, and I was studying to be a teacher. I thought I would be a secondary school teacher, and I had a conflict with my professor, and I just really was trying to explain to him, you know, you’re not doing what you’re saying we should do. You’re not doing in your classroom what you’re saying we should do in our classrooms. He did not appreciate that and asked me not to come back to class. And so I got a job at a startup. So I was getting a job at a startup because I needed something that I could ride my bike to I wasn’t. And what happened is that it changed my career right then, because as I was at this startup, still in college, and my manager left, and then we started managing ourselves in the telemarketing department, and I realized nobody knows how to do this better than us, and so we kind of inside of a little pocket of not empowered people just did what we needed to do and managed ourselves. And that role that was just a part time job in my college career, kind of launched things for me, because I realized that if you want to learn how to do something, you can, and that often the people in the organization around don’t know so you are empowered to learn your job, even if those who are in charge of you can’t teach you. And that was a big insight, you know, that was a very entrepreneurial insight, is, you know, actually, I can be in charge of myself and my learning and that that experience, you know, I ended up starting consulting firms. After that. I worked for Ford Motor Credit, you know, a big company I want to get and see what it’s like in the and I sampled all the different types of organizations. So sampled startups, nonprofits, corporations, and then building my own. And no time in there did I feel confident that I knew how to build a business. But it I also began to have confidence in the process of learning, like I might not know how to do it, but I can figure it out along the way. So having confidence in the learning. It almost allowed me to go places that a person who’s not confident in themselves is not going to go. But I was confident in the learning I could so after I left Ford Motor, I got a job for a small healthcare information company, and I worked in and it was mid sized. I worked there for a while, and my husband ended up getting transferred to Boulder. And so I said, I’m sorry I have to leave. Gonna be moving to Boulder. And they said, How about if you stay working for us? And that was in 1995 or remote I was a telecommuter and a pioneer in the remote working experience, and it really shaped I was getting my master’s degree at the time. It really shaped my career in realizing that that what we do can be done digitally, so much of our work. And that was very formative. It was after that business that I started integrated work, which is a leadership development firm, still going on new ownership and leadership. I transferred it in 2020 but

Karan Rhodes  09:22

Congratulations!

Jessica Hartung  09:23

Thank you. From 1998 to 2020 I was growing a leadership development firm that served nonprofit executives, and we did a lot of peer to peer group development. And so that was really my raising. I raised myself up with these other you know, we all learned how to be CEOs together. It was very gratifying. And then that process of transitioning a business, going through the succession planning and actually exiting a business. And I have a publishing business, I started in 2012 and so I continue to use the publishing business for my work. Now, and the executive mentorship is through tree light as the company. And so my career has been primarily entrepreneurial, and I’m as surprised as you!

Karan Rhodes  10:12

But you might be surprised. Maybe you didn’t know that when you were that young college kid, when the professor said, you know, don’t come back. And we were just trying to find your next best opportunity. You may not have known it back then, but there, you know, was a path, and it was meaningful, and it sounds that there were transitions along the way that helped direct your step, and there was a lot of learning along the way as well. What I’m also fascinated about is that your concept of learning labs. And so I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit more about your thoughts and thought leadership on that and how valuable they are. And then I’d love to delve into your passion and around writing your book, and maybe a tip or two there. So let’s first start with the learning labs.

Jessica Hartung  11:03

Yeah. So what I’ve realized is that, as an owner of a business who had people to train and myself to train, is that actually we can use the conditions of work to create a learning laboratory for our leadership. It’s not hard to do it requires three things, and as awareness, willingness and skill. And when people are aware of what they’d like to learn, what is it that they want to do in with their time and their influence, and what skills do they need in order to do that? And so then we start to look in the environment around them as to where could they build those skills? Are there Task Force? Are there committees? Are there volunteer opportunities? Are there opportunities within your own workspace, in talking with your staff or your team, so looking at how to build for each person, a customized you know, it’s not so much an individual development plan, but actually a way in which they get to practice their leadership. What I find is that in the awareness area, you know, oftentimes folks are trying to teach those who are not yet aware that they need to learn that. And of course, it doesn’t go very far, right. And then we also know that when folks are willing there, you know, it might not have been the first item on our curriculum, but if the willingness is there, if you start there, then things can flow from there and that the skill, the actual skill building, happens in practice. It happens with the learning by doing. So I recently talked to a client. We were setting her up for, you know, assessments and other things, and she’s like, this is like, turning my work into a learning laboratory. And I was like, well, thank you. That’s exactly what we had in mind. Yeah. So I think it lifts retention, it lifts employee engagement. It lifts and reduces burnout, because when folks are learning and have their own intersected with what it is that their content of their learning, it really activates their engagement, because it’s more than just about the job, it’s about what they want to learn in their life.

Karan Rhodes  13:13

That’s right, and I think that’s why you and I connected so much when we took earlier, because you all emphasize a lot of that I always do as well, is, is that whole active learning by doing, and then my research and work takes it one step further. Is, how do you put it all together when you’re back on the job. And so that’s we were, you know, trying to research leadership execution, because you take all of these great learning experiences that you have, whether they be formalized or informal or on the job, but at some point, you got to pull them all together and to operate as you know your best self, as you integrate them into your roles, and so that…

Jessica Hartung  13:56

Yes. And so that integration is the part that I spend the most time working with folks on is

Jessica Hartung  14:03

after they’ve read something and we’re talking about, let’s take how to deal with mistakes, you know. So they’ve read the thing on. Here’s some different approaches. Now they’re dealing with their own mistake, but the applying of that is where the coaching and support comes in, and that can come from peers. It doesn’t require it to be necessarily a leadership development professional, but when peers learn how to support one another as thinking partners, they can help with some of that implementation, because we just get stuck in our own limits, but when we have the access to those other brains around us, it can really support being able to see the bigger picture.

Karan Rhodes  14:03

It’s hard, right?

Karan Rhodes  14:42

That’s right! Iron sharpens iron. So absolutely, absolutely. So share a little bit more with us about how you came up with the passion and the idea to write your book, and maybe a few nuggets that you. You might be able to share with our listeners as takeaways for today.

Jessica Hartung  15:04

Sure. Well, the first thing I published was an article in conscious Company Magazine, and it was called, what to do if your coworkers were raised by wolves. Ah, so the idea of raised by wolves came out because so many of us have had difficult work experiences, right? And we leave that work experience behind. Isn’t that lovely, except that we bring with us a lot of the behaviors because we don’t know different. We’ve been raised by wolves in the sense that we haven’t seen what it’s like to live in a more conscious company, so that then when a person who’s leaving a wolf den and is dropped in a conscious company is both hard for them to get their bearings, how are we? Whoa, this culture is so different, and it’s also hard for co workers to know how to support that person. And so that’s what I wrote, because this is what I was hearing folks we’re having trouble with. So what I’ve done is decided that my role, if you will, is to help the difference makers and give them the boost and the support and some of the consolidated knowledge that they need. And so the idea of starting to publish, and then I thought, you know, there’s only so many people I can work with directly, if I can, you know, give this information to a broader audience, and it kind of is an on ramp, and that’s why I wrote the book, because I wanted folks to have an on ramp to conscious professional development for themselves. Their manager may or may not be in on this, right, but they don’t have to wait, and especially at the upper levels. You know, when I look at some of the managers and leaders, they are not receiving mentorship, management, leadership in the way that they are wanting to be able to deliver it, so they have to grow it themselves. That’s right, and that process of giving guidance so that folks can grow what they need to it’s kind of like, instead of giving the fish, you know, teaching folks how to extract the learning and the benefit from their job. And I call that the third paycheck. So the first paycheck being our financial compensation benefits, etc. The second paycheck the emotional reward, you know, that sense of satisfaction, but the third paycheck is the skills and the new capacities that we have built from our experience, and we take that with us forever. And I want everybody to get their third paycheck.

Karan Rhodes  17:38

I want everybody to get their third paycheck too. And I wish I had something like that when, back when I first started, you know, my career, and I’m not sure exactly where your book is targeting, but I think it could be of such benefit, especially to those that are coming out of college and earlier in career, because companies are making some tough choices about where to invest in talent development, and it’s widely reported, it’s not all the needs that the general workforce population has. And what a kickstart, a way to change your thinking around you don’t have to wait on others. There are things you can do to start up skilling yourself and preparing yourself in the future, for the future.

Jessica Hartung  18:24

Yeah, and I wrote it very practical. Every chapter has examples of real life work situations based on my clients experiences and and some of my own experiences. But what’s important to me is to democratize leadership development. This is something that each individual can own for themselves.

Karan Rhodes  18:44

Yeah,

Jessica Hartung  18:45

And so giving people a book that mentors them how to that’s really what I wanted, because I believe that, you know, our whole society is undergoing changes right now. We’re trying to figure out how to live together and work together as human beings on this planet.

Karan Rhodes  19:00

That’s right?

Jessica Hartung  19:01

And first place where we start to explore that is in our workplaces, right? And so that’s why I’m a fan of conscious professionalism, the greater self awareness, more personal, actual authenticity in the workplace. And these are subtle and, you know, emerging aspects of leadership, but I think there’s no reason why we can’t all be working on it at the same time.

Karan Rhodes  19:25

I agree. I totally agree, and I know there’s a kind of a holistic and an intentional approach to doing this, but Jessica, can you give our listeners, just say, just one piece of advice of what could they do, or an example of where they could start, just so they can kind of ground it in their minds and rush out and get your book to learn more.

Jessica Hartung  19:49

All right? Well, I’ve got two, two real important entry points. So when folks say to me, you know, well, if I want to be a conscious professional, what’s the first thing? I would do. And there’s certainly many different answers to that, but one thing that you can start with in any role is you can start to notice what’s working and comment on it. And so when we’re deliberate, we think about someone who’s conscious and deliberate in their intent. They’re focused on doing something intentionally because they think it’s going to work well, it’s their strategy to make it effective. But before that, before we have a sense of we want to intend to do this, we need to even notice what’s what is worth doing. So that first bit of noticing what’s working and getting that praise or appreciation or acknowledgement of that out there. That’s one thing that anyone can do in any role, and it really up levels the environment. And the second thing is, I talk a lot of folks about burnout, and this has been a very intense time for many folks, and we’re all, almost everybody’s sort of flirting with the edge of burnout, you know, in the amount of of activities that we take on. So when, when we look at burnout, and I’ve written a number of articles on that the various stages of it, etc, but let me just give you one piece.

Karan Rhodes  21:13

Sure,

Jessica Hartung  21:13

Which is that in burnout, we are generally looking to plug the holes, see where folks are depleting their energy, and stop that from happening. I’d like to offer another alternative. Yes, we do want to, you know, stop the depletion of the energy, but unless we build some energy, we’re still not really going to overcome that burnout. What we’re looking for is is, how do we get fired up again, right?

Karan Rhodes  21:41

Oh right. Right.

Jessica Hartung  21:42

And so the thing for I would recommend, the one tip for those who are dealing with burnout, flirting with burnout, watching others who are flirting with burnout, is that being able to notice what gives you energy. This is where awareness is much more of an asset than most people realize. Awareness sounds so passive, but if you’re aware of where you get energy, what gives you more, then as you delete some of the things that deplete you if you have this ongoing energy source, and so for some people, it’s the type of work. There was a study done and drive that physicians were able to select whether it’s research, client, contact, instruction, what was the aspect of their job they enjoyed the most, and they were able to do that for 20% only 20% of the time. The aspect they enjoyed the most. It reduced burnout by half because the energy that is created from the positive experience lets the other energy depleters be less of a problem. You see what I mean,

Karan Rhodes  22:51

And it provides more room for that. Those energy boosters,

Jessica Hartung  22:56

Yes,

Karan Rhodes  22:57

To take space right in your mental well being. I love that.

Jessica Hartung  23:01

And then, yeah, it starts to have a cascade effect, you know, where we feel a little bit better and we get a little more energized. And so that burnout kind of is the seeds of the firing up there. Yeah.

Karan Rhodes  23:15

So can I just add to that? Yes and… And so I these are two. I was busy writing them down on my notebook so I didn’t forget them. Those are two great examples, but specifically on burnout, I would give our listeners a bit of coaching that you have to articulate and be intentional with your manager and co workers around that call out what gives you energy? Yes, and what might be your quicksand? Because it’s amazing how people will adapt to you and say, Hey, Karan loves, yeah, chit chatting with people or entertaining or, you know, going to business meetings. Why doesn’t she take the lead on this interaction with this client, while John over here really like spreadsheets and putting data together, and he can take the lead on, you know, doing whatever the back end work, but if you call it out and make people aware of it, it’s amazing how they will try to help support you, yeah, and that’s part of being that You know, that conscious professional

Jessica Hartung  24:21

It is, and that collective learning is something that I’m a proponent of. I guess I would call myself an advocate for workplace learning, you know, in that collective way. And so when you’re looking at what gives you energy and what gives someone else and, you know, helping us to learn together, how we maximize what we can do, and that process of learning together, collective learning, I think not everybody knows how to do that.

Karan Rhodes  24:51

And it’s something you don’t have to wait for your boss to do. You can do it. Sorry, right?

Jessica Hartung  24:56

But not everyone knows how to be a participant in collective. Learning, they kind of need some support so that you have that approach in your business as a accepted rather than sometimes people look at learning as losing. You know, when I’m learning is something about you or you know we’re learning something together, that means that we’re not at our best. I feel you know that if we’re ever going to get closer to our best, we’re going to be doing a lot of learning, and if we could do it together, then it’s exponentially more powerful.

Karan Rhodes  25:28

I agree. I have another consultant, who’s a friend, who has a whole series on what he calls contributorship, and what he does is he helps teams in organizations understand how to best interact and learn and support each other, and what does that truly look like to build high performing teams? And it’s just amazing. Some of the the work and studies that have been done about that and that kind of really backs up some of the points that you just made.

Jessica Hartung  25:59

Yes, it’s all connected. That’s one of the things I’ve been very satisfied about we keep up on the industry. And I read Harvard Business Review, and I was just reading that there were three different styles of organizational learning leading the leading of the organizational learning. And one is kind of a custodian of the existing competency models, and the next one is as more of a challenger and and creating new opportunities. And the third type was a connector, and the connector created opportunities for people to learn from each other as a part of, you know, an institutional curriculum, and not just sitting in front of a PowerPoint, but actual dialog. And that’s where I focus. You know, people need the skill of being able to have dialog in a group where we’re talking about personal, professional development things. It’s a capacity, and we’re building it.

Karan Rhodes  26:51

That’s right, absolutely right. Well, Jessica, I could talk to you for literally five hours. Much to probably the chagrin of our listeners, but we cannot let you leave out of here without asking you our signature question. As you know, we’ve done quite a bit of work on the concept of leadership execution and best practices around that, and you are so kind to share that leading with strategic decision making really resonated with you.

Jessica Hartung  27:17

Yes.

Karan Rhodes  27:17

And for my new listeners, just so you know, it is what it sounds like. It’s strategic decision making is all about making good decisions yourself or helping to lead a great decision making process with your colleagues or people you’re working in in order to achieve your top strategic goals and priorities. So curious minds want to know, Jessica, why did strategic decision make it really resonate with you.

Jessica Hartung  27:42

You know, there was a statistic that I read a number of years ago from the center of creative leadership, and it said less than 10% of executives have strategic thinking skills. I was shocked and appalled. And you know, I also really appreciate that there’s a big difference between a tactical decision maker and a strategic decision maker, and we’re all making all of those decisions daily, but not being aware of when we’re moving into a strategic zone, or we need to move into a strategic zone is so important to me because I think it gives us that executive view, you know, when we look across and from any position. You know, when I was an ice cream scooper at back in high school, I you know, we’re scooping the ice cream on a hot summer night, and I realized that the some of the ice cream coolers are lower, and the kids can see in them, but the flavors that the kids like are in the higher coolers, and the parents have to lift them up, and it’s taken forever. And so what we did was redesign where the ice cream goes based on, you know, the customer flow. And so that’s not a worker bee perspective, right? Yet, my role was scooping ice cream. But what I wanted to share is that everyone in any role can use strategic thinking and ultimately strategic decision making to advance the success of the whole

Karan Rhodes  29:18

Exactly. I love that. What a great example. I might have to shamelessly steal that, plagiarize that, if I can from you when, when we teach and talk about it, that was a great example. Good. All right. Well, Jessica, we truly appreciate the gift of your time coming on the show today, we’re going to have a ton of information about you. Obviously, in the show notes, your bio, links to where to find you and your company and the great work you’re doing. But we’d love to give you a little bit of air time to do the same. So can you please share where folks can find you if they want to catch up and learn more?

Jessica Hartung  29:52

Yes, I think the best place is Jessicahartung.com I’ve got a good material out there so you can get to know me. You. But I would also say LinkedIn is a great place. I post there, and I also in the Forbes coaches Council. Usually we post there on LinkedIn. So I love to connect with folks on LinkedIn. I’m happy to do that and the professional development type of tips and material that I put out. I always appreciate interaction and questions and even challenging questions. You know, I love it when folks say I don’t understand when you said this or this, which is it. And you know, those kind of questions are great. So I love the dialog that’s available on LinkedIn, and would be delighted to have you show up on Jessicahartung.com, we’re doing a new seven day transform your life. It’s called a power shift challenge. And so it’ll be seven days of on the job development

Karan Rhodes  30:46

That’s amazing. Well, listeners, if you don’t go out and befriend Jessica on LinkedIn, you’re really losing out. I mean, she’s a person that is very giving, would love to interact with you, has invited you to do so, so, so definitely take advantage. Well, thank you again, Jessica for coming on the show today, and we really and truly appreciate you.

Jessica Hartung  31:11

Thank you, and back at you. I love what you’re doing and grace with which you do it.

Karan Rhodes  31:16

Oh, thank you so much. That means a lot. And thank you two listeners for the gift of your time today, and we always know that there are literally millions of other podcasts you could be listening to out there, and we do not take your patronage lightly. All that we ask is just you please subscribe to the show and share it with just one friend, because by doing so, we can all better lead at the top of our games. Thanks so much, and see you next week.

Jessica Hartung  31:43

Thank you,

Karan Rhodes  31:47

And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.