Episode 115 | Integrating Wellness to Increase Leadership Impact with Elena Agaragimova

 Elena Agaragimova  00:03

Today  managers,  or  as  of  at  least  late,  like,  2010s…So  like,  2019  or  so,  according  to  Gardner,  managers  oversee  three  times  as  many  people  today  as  they  did  just  a  few  years  ago.  

Voiceover  00:03

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:36

Hello, my superstars. This is Karan, and welcome to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast. On today’s show, we have a true self described but true catalyst for transformation in the talent development space, and I am so honored to have on today’s show, Miss Elena, and I’m going to let her say her last name, because I’ve murdered it four times already. So if you can say your last name, Elena?

Elena Agaragimova  01:03

Agaragimova

Karan Rhodes  01:04

Okay, so listen, if you see why, I didn’t even want to try and be disrespectful, but Elena is the founder of shift and the author of two books, shift and the rough guide to awesome leadership. So that doesn’t pique your interest, I don’t know what would and she is also the host of two podcasts called shift with Elena, agar and Confessions of a career coach. Elena has had a ton of experience, and I was so eager to bring her onto the show because she has some interesting philosophies on how to kind of combine and think through your leadership actions along with psychological safety and wellness. And so these are some topics that we don’t put together enough as we think about leadership. And I’m just thrilled to be having this kind of conversation with her today. So welcome to the show, Elena, thank you. Good to be here. Oh, it’s awesome to have you. Well, as you know, I can’t wait to delve into our conversation today, but we always love to learn a little bit more about our guests before we jump into the nitty gritty. So for just as much as you feel comfortable, would you mind just giving us a sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Elena Agaragimova  02:24

Yeah, sure. So actually, the most recent thing I actually just came back from New York, because one of my things that I love doing outside of work is my podcasting life, which is, you know, it’s kind of, I guess it has some work pieces to it, but that was up in New York because I started to record, in person, some of my podcast episodes. So I’m four years in, and last year I said I want to deliver better experience to my guests and my listeners, of course, and so I wanted to start recording in person. So that’s been really interesting, because, as you know, like, you know, podcasts are so fun, and in person is great. Virtual, it offers a different perspective. So it’s just, it’s been a lot of fun. So I do a lot of that. I enjoy traveling. And just also this theme for this year, for me is focus and build. And a lot of that focus has to do of just letting some things go and learning that maybe I don’t have to continuously run and hustle and do all these things that I have been doing through my 20s and my 30s, and on my late 30s, I said maybe it’s time to slow down, so I’m also doing a lot of slowing down outside of work.

Karan Rhodes  03:21

Oh, I wish you were…could have tapped me on the shoulder when I was in my 30s to tell me to do the same, because I was like hands down. But I can sympathize now because or empathize now because I’m kind of in that same phase of being a bit more intentional and focused on the core things that brings me and our company joy the way we want to show up in the world of work. And so I love, love your vision for 2025 I can definitely relate. Well, thank you so much for sharing that tidbit about you. So if you don’t mind, let’s go ahead and like jump into our conversation today. I’m not sure where you’d love to start, but at least let our audience know a little bit about your background at a very high level before we start talking about leadership concepts. So what were the areas in your professional career that you’ve tapped on to date, and where do you love to spend your time now?

Elena Agaragimova  04:17

So I started my career in higher education, so over the last 14 years, the first kind of quarter of my career or so has been in higher education and the learning spaces. I’ve worked with undergraduates to master degree students to then executive MBAs and that were already working professionals. So naturally I was like, Okay, well, what’s next? Next is something within learning and corporations. So I went into learning and development at that stage, because I was already working with that profile of individuals, just like which is a working professional, right in corporations. So it was kind of just a natural transition, and then, and I’ve kind of developed into those roles. So I wore different hats, as a trainer, facilitator, learning, designer, I’ve had my own company prior to shift. I’ve had a different company as well. In 2019 with. Business partner. And what we did was we basically serviced big corporations around performance and well being in those organizations, but for their employees. And so through that, our head of a marketeer, person and a salesperson so on. So kind of just kind of was, you know, the chief learning officer, so to say, in the company at the time. And then after that, I also dipped into talent acquisition, because I feel like when you talk about talent development, it actually starts at talent acquisition. So I was able to kind of also lead on that. And I still spend a lot of time in talent acquisition today. And a big part where I spend my time is that mid level manager. So I do also some work with younger, kind of early career professionals. But where I really enjoy the time is that mid level career professional is that on somebody who’s on a cusp of becoming a manager, or somebody who’s maybe been a manager but never had management or leadership training, and kind of really helping them go to that next leadership level. And I work with leaders from all sorts of background, and I’m always continuously surprised, but also, you know, and I don’t know if surprise is the right word, but kind of just, it’s interesting how we forget that leadership is not just about having done X, Y and Z. It’s a continuous, evolving journey. And I see this across board, so that’s where I kind of spend my time today.

Karan Rhodes  06:15

Oh, I love that. And you know why I love you focus on kind of the middle managers is because they are some of the most critical leaders in an organization, but often overlooked because they have been celebrated for being great individual contributors and gotten up into management, but like you said, a lot of them don’t have Access or weren’t given the right skill training or up leveling their leadership knowledge to be very influential. And so they’re trying to develop teams, as well as trying to field and execute the direction of their leaders and bosses in the organization. And so they so need that help. So I just want to high five you on helping with them. And I love, love, love that focus. I don’t think you’ll ever grow with a shortage of clients.

Speaker 1  07:06

No, absolutely not. What else an important thing you mentioned is that they’re responsible for taking care of their people and then managing up, and also, the same time they’re responsible taking care of themselves. That’s the part that goes by the sideways, and that’s the most unproductive things managers can do. And we can talk more about that, because I think it impacts not only them, but also the leadership. And I think this is also what the senior leadership misses, is the very basic of what it takes to be a high performer. And we just miss these basics. We spend a lot of money on all these expensive training and leadership training courses without covering the base of what it takes to actually be a high performer in general, in your career, in your life, and so on. So we can definitely talk about some of those things.

Karan Rhodes  07:46

I agree. Well, let’s jump into that. Since you brought that up, why do you think or what’s going on in the workplace dynamics of why? Because we all you mean whatever research study you look at, or whatever survey you see, we talk about the importance of, you know, well, being the workplace, and a focus on giving your people what they need to be successful. They’ve been talking about this for hundreds of years, and we still haven’t really cracked the net on this. So in your opinion, where do you think the big misses? Why don’t our executives translate what we know to be needs of a workforce population to what in reality they offer support? Where’s the gap?

Speaker 1  08:33

Yeah, before we go into just to set some context, let’s just look at a couple of statistics. So today, managers as of at least late like 2010 so like 2019 or so, according to Gardener, managers oversee three times as many people today as they did just a few years ago. And being a manager is a very stressful job, but then you’re overseeing three times the amount of typically that you you maybe when you started off in your career, right? 30% of employees also report that having bosses who are too stressed to help them. So this is, according some of the reports from LinkedIn recently, is that people, one of the things that the feedback that is employees give to their organizations, like my boss, like the comments they make, is my boss is stressed, or my boss is, you know, is not handling this well, and so on. So I think that’s a big thing, and we’ve really seen this accelerate over the last few years, and we can talk about, kind of some of the reasons of why that happens. And so I think there’s just a lot of different changes that are happening. And part of it could, could be just because, just the speed of business today, the speed of the rise in competition today, the speed of technological advances that we just can’t keep up with, especially in certain industry, like certain industries, like tech, like, I’m in tech, I do I work with a lot of software developers and so on, even healthcare tech, right? Like, there’s just so many developments that you have to stay on top of it, and if you’re not staying on top of it as an organization, you’re going to be left behind. Yeah. I mean, we see this happen, even happening in higher education. If you’re not staying on top of the new the. Latest trends of what your customer needs, which is, students, in that case, you’re going to be left behind, which is, we see, I forget the numbers right now, but you know, we have 1000s of colleges closing every year, yeah, because there’s nobody’s going to those places, right? And so…

Elena Agaragimova  10:16

and the desires of that of the college community,

Speaker 1  10:17

Exactly. So. So there’s a lot of that happening. So I think all of that is just accelerating. And we are not as human beings, like as employees, as as leaders and organizations. We’re not paying attention enough to that, because we’re so busy executing and we’re just trying to keep up versus pausing and actually working out a strategy that might work. There’s a lot of talk about AI and how it’s going to, you know, either assist in creating or assist your current employees with kind of doing their jobs better or faster or easier. And then there’s talks of things that they’re going to replace and so on. But the reality is, only 30% of organizations are actually doing anything with AI right now, so nobody’s even paying attention to what’s happening with AI and how it’s going to impact the workforce, right? And again, being in software development space, you know, it was software developers were so hot and trendy 1020, years ago, you know, the hardcore coders like that was the job to get. And then you go to today, where it’s like, low code, no code, platforms are coming out. So now, like some, sometimes, when I work with with companies you have, you can easily train somebody who’s doesn’t come from tech background, who doesn’t have a computer science degree, to for them to be, to use tech platforms where it’s codes for them, essentially, so Exactly. And so imagine all of this happening and we’re not paying attention. I think part of it is that, you know, you asked the question around, like, what is the gap? And I think the gap is just we’re not paying attention generally. And part of it could be because we don’t know what to pay attention to. Part of it could be that we’re all just collectively on this survival, going, going, going train without actually pausing. Yeah. And the final thing, I’ll pause in a second, but a final thing I mentioned here is that I think for leadership, we expect that they have all the answers, like the senior leaders, yeah. And we say, well, why aren’t they paying attention? But who’s paying attention to them as well? Like, who’s paying attention to them? And saying, Are you taking a moment, Mr. Or Mrs. Senior leader, Mr. CEO. You know what I mean, Miss CEO. Like, are you taking a moment to understand what’s happening with you first and foremost, before you can be there for your managers and kind of the you know people that that work with them. So I’ll pause here. So I think, just to set context, I think there’s just a lot of things that are happening that we’re not paying enough attention to, or maybe we’re paying attention to the wrong things, which is just trying to keep up versus just pausing and truly trying to understand where we should focus on

Karan Rhodes  12:41

So I agree with you 150% and I’ll just give additional context. So yes, and one of the areas that our firm is really passionate about, and has added to our repertoire in the last few years is assisting advisory boards and board of directors of companies on them how they should oversee and help govern their HR and talent agendas of the companies that they’re responsible for. And there is just been a survey out that only 20% of organizations and companies have on their board of directors an HR subcommittee to kind of study some of the look what, just what you mentioned, you know, what are some of the trends that are going on in the organization and in the workplace, and how can they improve on those? And there’s studies that came out from, you know, Wall Street and NASDAQ and a lot of others on corporate governance, saying that more and more organizations are going to need to have a deeper focus, because they’ve realized that the leaders within the company, to your point, are really struggling themselves. What to focus on, how to facilitate change, because they didn’t go to school to be HR pros or organizational effectiveness pros, but their actions are critical to the bottom line of these companies. So I definitely agree that who’s looking out for the leaders who are charged or accountable with leading the organization when they themselves have some blind spots and gaps that they need to focus on?

Speaker 1  14:16

Yeah, and to make it like super practical for your listeners as well. You know, we can look at it from if we just look, let’s say we look at a manager side. And there’s three things that we can do pretty, fairly easily today that’s not going to cost anything, in most cases, maybe a little bit of time from the person. So if you’re a senior leader listening to this, this is something, this is how you can support your managers, right? And if you’re a manager listening to this, I offer three kind of reflections for you as well. So number one, the first one is really going back to that well being piece. I literally, just before this call, I got off the call with a senior person in Microsoft who’s coming on my podcast, and so we were kind of chatting, and she has a very senior role in Microsoft. She’s been there for many years. She’s a wife. She has, I think, two kids. So she leads a very busy life. She’s based in New York, so very busy city and so on. So it’s very easy to get distracted. And she said, You know, one of the best things she said, Elena, I’ve done recently is, of course, with the support of her husband, so God bless him. But she took seven days over the holidays, like right before the holidays, right before, like in December. Sometimes she said she did a little retreat, you know, seven days where she just took a moment to disconnect, and she said, I came back so much stronger and ready to go, and full of energy and full of clarity and full of answers and so many things that not only made her a better, you know, partner in life, but also a better leader and so on, right? And I think you don’t have to take it extreme. But I think just even if you’re listening to this, you’re like, Elaine, is ridiculous. I cannot take seven days. You know, this is not for everybody fairly so

Karan Rhodes  15:48

You may take a long weekend, though, maybe you add a couple of business days onto the weekend.

Speaker 1  15:51

days. But you know, Karan, like, there’s been studies that’s been done that even if you take 10 minutes in the morning of just quiet, it does so much. I’m not a scientist, nor am I a doctor, but it does a lot of benefit to your brain and to how you react to things later on. It gives you clarity just 10 minutes, 10 minutes in the beginning of the day, and maybe a couple of minutes during the day where you’re just pausing everything, you’re shutting everything down for just those maybe five minutes, look out your window and don’t do anything. Don’t listen to anything, don’t think about anything else. Just Just look at the wall for all that matters. Like, really, it’s that insignificant, but it’s like, it’s that simple to do, and it has a lot of magic on our brain and how we then proceed with the rest of the day. So, you know, I don’t spend too much time, but Well, being is number one. And as a as a manager, you know, just look at auditing, you know, how are you sleeping? What are you eating? What are you putting on your body? How much water you’re drinking, right? These are the basics, the basics of what it takes to be a high performer, which is how much sleep. You know, if you’re getting crappy sleep or not enough sleep, and you’re waking up groggy, that’s not a natural state of mind. Nobody should be waking up unless you have small children or elderly parents are taking care of you should be getting decent amount of sleep and you should be waking up refreshed, not reaching for a cup of coffee first thing. So that’s number one, right? So just well being. Just audit your well being overall and see where can you make small, incremental changes? Because that is the beginning of performance. That is the beginning of creativity and productivity and all those things. You cannot be at your best. If the base of your well being is missing, it just doesn’t work. We’re still human. We need certain things. So number one, number two, reflecting on your management skills. So whether you are an experienced manager or had the management training, just really understanding that what people really care about today at work. And this was a Gallup report that recently also came out this this last year. Now can say in 2024 and they asked a bunch of managers, like, a couple 1000 managers, and then 15,000 or so individual contributors that would report to those managers, and they asked them, essentially, what is the most important thing that you want your manager to have? And the manager was kind of saying, like, they should be likable and, you know, friendly and supportive and high performer and so on. And the employees were actually saying, like, it’s great to have those things, but what actually influences performance of your team is, are you having productive conversations, and are you giving them constructive feedback? Are you giving them meaningful, impactful feedback? Are you spending more than ticking the box having an annual or mid review, and you just like, you know, spilling a bunch of, you know, ticking the boxes, items that you need to go through. Are you actually having a conversation with your employee? Are you actually giving them meaningful feedback on continuous basis, not twice a year, when HR tells you to do that right? So I think even that small thing, just like asking yourself, when was the last time you had a one on one with your team member? Do you know what your team member you know each of your team members values? Do you know what motivates them? Do you know what wakes them up in the morning, excited to come to work? Do you know how they feel about their job? Do you know if they know what’s the future of their career in that company? Right? I think these things is what people want. We want feedback. We want to grow and want to feel stability. And today, which takes me to my third point, what communication? This is where leadership, senior leadership, can really lend a hand to the managers, because managers in this tough spot where they have to give all this information to their team members, but they don’t always get that transparency from leadership either. That’s right. So I think having the right flow of communication, transparency in the company, with all the changes that were experienced that we just discussed in the beginning of this conversation, right? All the changes that’s happening in the business world, with all the uncertainty and all those things, it’s important to communicate on regular basis. Maybe it’s quarterly, maybe it’s twice a year, where the company is, where it’s going. What does that mean for everybody in the company, from the Junior, from the intern, all the way to the senior level person, right? Because that is what adds to stress to employees, right? So I think, you know, that’s kind of where I see we can definitely do better, and it doesn’t cost anything, but time, really, just a few minutes of time. Number one, audit your well being as a manager, as a leader. Number two, ask yourself, How have you been as a manager, like, have you really been an effective manager? Are you giving people what they want? One, do you just ticking boxes for HR? Number three, communication and transparency. How are you making sure that your people, or if you’re asking your leadership, you know, to make sure that you have all the right information to be able to share with the team members, so that everybody feels a little bit more at ease in these changing times.

Karan Rhodes  20:15

I love that. And on top of that is, you know, some of the things I always coach leaders to do is as much as possible treat every member, especially direct reports of their team, as an individual of one. Because you you know what motivates you. Elena may not be the same thing that motivates me, but if you have like you said, those deeper conversations try to get to understand your staff a little bit better, then you will learn, you know, what are those triggers that will help them feel more energized, focused and engaged, as well as you’ll learn how to best reward them when they’re doing, you know, fantastic and all in the meantime, you’re also deepening that, know, like trust factor that they have in you as their leader. You don’t have to have answers to everything, but you do have to be empathetic. Have that listening ear and to your point, you know, give them ongoing feedback, both positive and constructive, constructive in a very tactful way, to let them know that you’re, you know, 100% their strategic supporter and empowering them to be their best. So I love what you have suggested for leaders to focus on, because, like you said, it doesn’t really cost anything but time, but you have to spend time anyway. So why don’t you do it on the right topics, and then the right way to make it very meaningful? Do you agree or have a perspective?

Elena Agaragimova  21:37

No. Absolutely, I think it’s just you have to choose what you’re willing, what pain you’re willing to feel. So you either feel the pain of giving some of your time now, or you feel the pain, the financial pain and then having to replace people, or, you know, whatever it may be, or, you know, just spend a lot more time and money down the road. You there’s just no other options. There is. It’s inevitable you’re either going to spend time or you’re going to spend time and money down the line. It’s totally up to me.

Karan Rhodes  22:02

What do you think about your what’s your perspective on wellness programs within organizations? Do you think we’ve gone down the right track, or is it some room to improve?

Elena Agaragimova  22:12

Listen, to be completely transparent. What I know working with corporates is that, and this not might be, this might be a very candid.

Karan Rhodes  22:19

That’s fine! I love it. I love it.

Elena Agaragimova  22:22

We know. Well, let me say it’s my personal opinion that at the end of the day, and I think many people will agree, companies don’t necessarily care about your well being. I think leaders are too busy in their own world and with their own stuff to care about your well being. But I think a smart leader and a smart organization understands that if you actually care, not care, in a sense of, if you actually provide resources and support for your people to be at their best, at their well being and those kind of things, if you provide them support, they will be better for your company. So even if you’re a leader and saying, Ah, this is, you know, this is wool stuff, and it’s all too wishy washy for me, it’s just a smart business decision to care about your people and also to point to your point about wellness, I think being mindful of where you spend your money. A lot of companies are doing all this, you know. They’re giving Fitbits and yoga mats and this they’re sending, you know, and they’re doing different things for spending a lot of money on different initiatives that actually employees don’t care about,

Karan Rhodes  23:20

You took the words right out my mouth!

Elena Agaragimova  23:21

you know, like the question, just ask, what do people actually care? What does well being mean for them? And well wellness and well being are so interchangeably used, but we have to remember, the well being for employees is beyond the health and mindset, like the mental state. It’s also financial. Well being, it’s social well being, absolutely, it’s career well being, it’s having, you know, it’s under career. Well being meaning just feeling like stability in their career, feeling like they’re progressing, feeling like they’re growing. Financial well being, right? You know, making sure like, am I, you know, not having to worry. Am I going to be laid off tomorrow? Right? So the people we need to feel financially secure in our lives, social well being and remote environments. Are we creating space for people to connect with their team members, if you are in a remote setting, right? How are you cultivating these relationships and creating these spaces, especially for the Gen Z’s coming in, because they have a lot of challenges with building those relationships. And I mean, I can spend a whole hour, which I won’t, on the numbers of Gen Z’s and the increase in loneliness younger professionals. So I think there’s a lot of things we don’t yet understand about well being as a whole. I think it’s used very broadly. And I think most companies are like, Oh, it’s a gym reimbursement. And I would just, the only thing, I would say, the only tip I have, is ask you your, you know, audit, where do people actually spend your benefits? Who’s using the benefits you’re providing within well being, and do they actually care about this stuff? And if they don’t, and if you have a subscription model for something, or some kind of reimbursement, or some kind of, I don’t know, support, but nobody uses it. Ask yourself, is it a because they don’t know about it, or B because they just don’t want to use it,

Karan Rhodes  24:53

Right?

Elena Agaragimova  24:53

Because that’s just a waste of money. So whatever is

Karan Rhodes  24:56

But get curious about what they do want, right?

Elena Agaragimova  24:57

Exactly. Ask them what they do want. So, you know, again. And like understanding you’re each team member,

Karan Rhodes  25:01

that’s so right. Well, listeners. I mean, there was tons of nuggets and what Elena just shared, but at the end of the day, I think what she and I both would agree to walk away from is you have to take care of yourself as well. Don’t be afraid to ask for what you desire. Give feedback for what would be meaningful for you to help your own overall wellness and all the levels of wellness, physical, mental, emotional, you name it, right? And just at the end of the day, make sure you’re taking care of yourself, because if you’re not doing that, you’re definitely not going to be able to lead at the top of your game. Fortunately, we’re rounding out on time today, but we cannot let Elena sneak away without asking her our signature question. And for my new listeners out there, you may not know, but our company commissioned a research study on high performing leaders, and out of that research came multiple buckets that were key segments for success for high performing leaders, and we always ask our guests which of the seven that we write about that came out of our research, and all seven are equally as important, but which one really popped for them. And Elena was so nice to share that leading with courageous agility really resonated with her and for my newbies out there, courageous agility is all about having the courage and the fortitude to go ahead and take calculated risk, not just crazy risk, but calculated risk, and still stand up for your belief in and still move forward even if the future is uncertain or unclear. It’s all about having that courage to even when you’re not 100% certain, done your research, you’ve come to some reasonable conclusions, and you still take those baby steps forward so that progress is made. So Elena, curious minds want to know why courageous agility really resonated with you.

Elena Agaragimova  26:54

Well, it resonated because something I often say is that the kind of three C’s, which is courage, curiosity and consistency. And I think these three I try to apply in my work and kind of just in my general career in life. And it’s something that keeps pumping up in just every theme of my life, essentially, and every season of my life as well. And I think, you know, courageous, because we need to be courageous, right, like because the you know the future is coming, and you know, like being courageous enough to, like to make a change, if you need to, to stay agile. And I think curiosity, just being curious about what’s next, will actually, you know, asking yourself, like, what’s next, and what what I don’t you know, we don’t know what we don’t know. So what is it that I don’t know today that I’m gonna look back at and be like, Hmm, I wish I would have known that. So who can I talk to? Like, being curious, who can I talk to, who can I learn from? You know, listening to things that I don’t normally listen to, exposing myself to environments and people that I don’t I don’t normally hang out in, right? Like, getting away from the algorithm, essentially, right? That’s like, right? Not it in my LinkedIn or my YouTube, my podcasting platforms. And then the last one is consistency. Because I think that no matter what you’re doing without consistency, nothing works. So I think by staying consistent is kind of where, ultimately success begin or continuous. Because whether you’re trying to get in shape, where you’re trying to get healthier, whether you’re trying to grow in your career, whether you’re trying to grow your podcast or your business, it’s consistency that matters. And most people don’t stick to things long enough to see the fruits of their labor, I guess, come out. So that’s why, you know, I say like Courage, curiosity and consistency and all of that is very much aligned with courageous agility.

Karan Rhodes  28:27

I love that awesome well, thank you so much for sharing that. Elena, we’re gonna have in for tons of information in our show notes about to your bio, links to your website and social media platforms. But always love to give our guests air time, to let our listeners know as well where to find them. So if anyone’s more curious about you or your company, where can they find you?

Elena Agaragimova  28:50

LinkedIn is the best place. That’s where I hang out in the most. I love LinkedIn.

Karan Rhodes  28:55

Wonderful. I do too, and that’s going to be, definitely be the first link you all need to tap into in the show notes find her, because, as I mentioned, her last name is a little bit unusual to spell that. I don’t want you to miss out on finding her, so definitely check those out. Well, thank you so much, Elena, For your gift of time. Today, it has been absolutely fabulous. I was sitting here feverishly taking notes on my little notepad here to share with my team. So thank you again for coming aboard on the episode today.

Elena Agaragimova  29:26

Thank you

Karan Rhodes  29:27

Awesome, and thank you to listeners for the gift of your time. As well as I always share, we know that you have literally millions of other podcasts you could be listening to, and we do not take your patronage lightly. All that we ask is that you like and subscribe to your favorite podcast platform or choice and share our podcast with just one friend, because by doing so, we all will better be able to lead at the top of our games. Thanks so much. And see you next week, And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.