Episode 119 | How Confidence Can Transform Trauma to Triumph with Sheena Yap Chan

Sheena Yap Chan  00:00

This really stemmed from a report from the World Economic Forum stating that to achieve full gender parity, the earliest we could achieve is in the year 2154. So, that’s actually delayed now. So it’s delayed to 2158 and at this current rate, I feel like it’s going to keep on delaying. So we definitely have to do something for this to actually go the opposite direction.

Voiceover  00:05

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:36

Hello, my superstars. This is Karan, and welcome to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast. We’re so happy that you joined us again this week, and we have an absolutely tremendous guest on today’s show. We’re pleased to welcome Sheena Yap Chan, who’s the author of The Wall Street Journal, best selling book The Tao of Self Confidence, a guide to moving the trauma and awakening the leader within. Isn’t that a fascinating title? You know why I had to have her on the show? Right? She is also the host of the podcast by the same name, the Tao of Self Confidence, and Sheena is really passionate and dedicated about closing the gender confidence gap and helping lay the groundwork for them to achieve the professional desires that they dream of. And so we’re so happy to have her on the show today. So welcome to the podcast, Sheena.

Sheena Yap Chan  01:34

Hey Karan, thank you so much for having me. Super excited to be here. Just chat more about confidence, leadership and everything else,

Karan Rhodes  01:42

Absolutely. And you and I both know that. You know, having a high level of confidence is very, very important and appearing as a very strong and perceptive leader. And so I can’t wait for us to dig into some of your writings, experience and findings. But before we do that, you know, we always love to learn just a little bit more about our guests. So just for as much as you feel comfortable, will you give us a sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Sheena Yap Chan  02:10

Yeah, for sure. So I was born in the Philippines. I moved to Toronto, Canada when I was seven, and all my work really stemmed from my upbringing in Toronto. You know, even though Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. When it comes to media, there wasn’t anybody in the media that looked like me, so it was really hard for me to imagine myself to be anything else. I felt like I needed to show up a certain way, I need to look certain way, even have a different name, to feel more accepted. And it wasn’t until my 20s, when I dyed my hair back from blonde to my original hair color, where I finally embraced me and my cultural background.

Karan Rhodes  02:45

Good for you.

Sheena Yap Chan  02:46

In 2015 when I was dealing with a lot of confidence issues, I was looking on the internet to see if there’s any resources that catered to specifically Asian Women’s confidence, and there wasn’t any. So part of me felt like I was the only one dealing with these things, and I know I wasn’t. And I also realized that I still wanted to build something that really created better representation, especially for Asian women. You know, I wanted to dismantle the stereotype that were seen as quiet, submissive and obedient. And so I started the podcast Tao of Self Confidence in September of 2015 I’ve interviewed over 800 women on this topic. And as much as I love podcasting and how podcasting is a labor of love,

Karan Rhodes  03:26

It is

Sheena Yap Chan  03:26

Yea, it’s still a very small. Yeah, it’s still a very small platform compared to other platforms. And so I knew I needed to dive into different types of media to build more visibility and representation, and that’s when booking books came into play. So I had a co authored book called Asian women who boss up, which highlights the stories of 18 Asian women, you know, sharing their journey of how they were able to forge their own path, overcome obstacles and thrive. And it’s also part of a book series called Women Who boss up. And that led me to writing my first book with Wiley, which is one of the biggest publishers in the world or in America. My book The Tao of Self Confidence, the guide to moving beyond trauma and awakening the leader within which became a Wall Street Journal, best selling book, and now I have my upcoming book, which is called Bridging the Confidence Gap, how empowered women change the world. So for me, it’s really important to empower women, to have more women in leadership, because there’s been research and numbers saying that when there’s more women in the in the leaderboards, or just in leadership in every industry, everybody wins. And you know, this really stemmed from a report from the World Economic Forum stating that to achieve full gender parity, the earliest we could achieve is in the year 2154 that’s actually delayed now. So it’s delayed to 2158 and at this current rate, I feel like it’s going to keep on delaying. So we definitely have to do something for this to actually go the opposite direction.

Karan Rhodes  04:49

Right. Well, first of all, congratulations on your success thus far. That is absolutely amazing, and I believe it probably resonated because it’s. Such personal topic that so many, not just women, struggle with, a lot a lot of people struggle with, but your focus on women probably has really made a difference, you know, in a lot of people’s lives. So congratulations on that.

Karan Rhodes  05:14

Thank you

Karan Rhodes  05:16

So Sheena, I’d love for you to share what are, because you’ve, you know, interviewed so many between the podcast and, you know, gathering information and data for your book. I’d love for you to share, first of all, some trends that you’re seeing, root causes of why women, in particular, have challenges with confidence. And then we can kind of go from there,

Sheena Yap Chan  05:40

Yeah, for sure, that’s a great question. I think…it’s really…there’s a lot of things, right? First of all, society, you know, we’re seen as the Superwoman of everything. You know, we’re taught to act a certain way when it comes to cultural traditions, or certain traditions that really hurts us, and yet we still continue to follow it, not realizing that it’s actually hurtful to do those traditions. And of course, men and different men and women are built differently, right? Men have been trained to be confident all their life, while women, we start actually having confidence issues as young as six. So can you imagine that as young as six years old? And so I mean, all these factors do contribute to why there’s a huge confidence gap between men and women, right? As men, you know, men will just figure it out as they go and they do something, you know, half the time they’re not even sure what they did. As women, as women, you know, we we pre plan, we over prepare, but yet something still holds us back, and it’s really how we perceive ourselves. And that’s really a big thing, right? Because if we don’t see our value, we don’t see our worth, we’re not going to go out there and take action and go out there and make things happen. And time and time again, this has happened because of the outside factors also that we deal with, right? There’s certain things we’re not supposed to do because it’s not deemed as lady like, right? Because of that, we tend to resist more, even when it comes to, like, dating, right? It’s it’s not usually the woman that makes the first move, it’s the men. So like, you know, if a man’s at a club, his one goal is to get one number, one number from a girl, right? He’ll go through 100 no’s just to get that one number. So rejection doesn’t phase them, because they practiced it right? Just by going up to the club or the bar asking, Hey, can I have your number? Hey, can I have because to him, it’s like he knows he’s gonna get no. So it just keeps on going until I’m trying, someone says Yes, right? Meanwhile, first, meanwhile, if we get our first rejection, it’s like the end of the world, right? We think, you know, we’re no good. We’re gonna go and sit and cry or eat ice cream or, you know, it’s just, it’s a lot harder for us to get passed through it. And so these little things make a huge difference, right? That people don’t notice, you know? And I talk a little bit more about that in my upcoming book, right? The we also go through a lot of biases, until today, unfortunately, you know, pay gap, the gap in many industries, you know, just the role of men and women in the family situation. Like all these also contribute as well. So, I mean, if you ask me that question, I feel like the whole half hour will be talking about all the different things. So, but that’s like some of them that would contribute to it.

Karan Rhodes  08:18

In your book, can you share maybe one or two tips with our audience on what they can do to kind of raise their level of self confidence?

Sheena Yap Chan  08:29

Yeah, depending on the books. So my first book, The Tao of self confidence. It talks about trauma, so I think it’s really important to learn to work through our traumas, right? I have a lot of people asking me how to build confidence, and I can totally tell you how to build confidence, but I think it’s more important to work through the root causes as to why you’re feeling low self confidence, why you’re feeling low self worth, because trauma plays a huge role in our lives, right? Whether it’s childhood trauma, PTSD, sexual trauma, money trauma, that all plays into our confidence. And so if we don’t work through it, then we’re gonna still be stuck in the same situation. One great example is like for me in the Philippines, I failed kindergarten for coloring outside the lines of a photo, and so I literally had to move to another school and redo kindergarten because I colored outside the lines of one photo. So can you imagine that? And that stemmed all through my adult life, because I always thought everything I touched was an instant failure. I just kept thinking I was a failure, and so I was able to work through that, like 30 years after, better late than never. But it’s really important to work through your traumas.

Karan Rhodes  09:35

Well, we’re still talking aboutit today. That’s how deep and resonated with you.

Sheena Yap Chan  09:40

Yeah, and for my upcoming book, one of the chapters that I dedicated on was self promotion, right? Because as women, you know we’re taught to, you know, we’re not taught to go out there and promote ourselves. In fact, we’re taught that self promotion is tacky, is not lady like, but especially if you’re in business for yourself, like we’re gonna have to learn to promote ourselves. We’re gonna have to learn to. To share about our products and services, how it can help someone for the better. And so for me, it’s empowering, right? And I’ve shared different tips there in the book that you can self promote without feeling tacky. Or, you know, if you still feel that way, there’s so many different ways to go around it that doesn’t feel tacky. So like one example is like product placement, right? If you watch movies, if you watch key dramas, I mean, you see products placed in the movies all the time, whether it’s car subway, and that’s like a multi million dollar industry. People don’t even realize what a big industry that is. So even something is like product placement, you know, you could do it without even stating it. You can just like, place the product in front of people, so

Karan Rhodes  10:43

Absolutely,

Sheena Yap Chan  10:44

Yeah,

Karan Rhodes  10:45

I love that. If I can, can I share a tip too?

Sheena Yap Chan  10:48

Yeah, for sure, it’s your show. Of course,

Karan Rhodes  10:52

I don’t want to take your thunder because you’ve been so kind to be a guest. But I was going to share that, you know, because quite a few of our listeners are like leaders in the workplace, you know, like from corporations or companies that they work for. And a topic that comes up a lot is, you know, wanting to be on the short list for, you know, a promotion or the next level, but, um, especially women are very shy or and I’m stereotyping here, but in general, tend to be quite hesitant or shy about just what you said about promoting themselves. And one of the things that we speak about a lot is a way to self promote, is arming your manager and your skip level manager with information about your contributions for the last quarter or this half year. You know, keeping giving them some bullet points and talking points that are top of mind that they can use when they’re, you know, thinking about the next level of leader or succession planning, or who to give an opportunity to. That’s kind of a no show. But way of saying, Hey, I just want to keep you informed, because they want to always get an update you know what you’re doing and what you level your performance. So you know by sending a note or having a coffee and having, you know, two or three bullet points of how you’ve made, you know, great contributions that can help stay top of mind for them. And most people find that as a non salesy way of promoting yourself, and still, you know, giving you self confidence to to stand up and speak for yourself, so you can be your best selves at work. So that was just one that kind of popped for me. Have you heard of that as well? Or do you think anything to add?

Sheena Yap Chan  12:39

Yeah, I mean, I actually share that as a tip. You know, just having, like, a list of things that you’ve done so that when promotion does come up, there’s a reason why you are the person for that. Of course, yeah, you know, there’s a reason why people want to promote you. And sometimes we need the proof, the backup the bullet, put proof points to show that, hey, I can, I do deserve this promotion because I’ve done this, this and this, and the result of this, this, and this has been this, this and that. So, yeah, it just gives more proof for you to be seen as that leader, to go to the next level.

Karan Rhodes  13:10

That’s amazing. Now, so can you also share a bit about your company and how you use your platform to really help empower people in organizations.

Sheena Yap Chan  13:23

Yeah, I mean, I help, you know, companies and organizations with confidence, workshops, talks, consulting, just kind of helping them develop the confidence skills to go out there and be a leader. You know, people don’t realize confidence plays a huge role in that, right? If you don’t have the confidence, you’re not going to go out there and make things happen. And so strategy is not really as important as the mindset, right? I think once you’ve figured out the mindset, you really work on yourself, then the strategy will be like, it’ll be a lot easier to do, because sometimes we think it’s the strategy that’s keep that’s stopping us, really, it’s how we see ourselves that’s stopping us. That’s right? I know. I’ve been there, I’ve seen a lot of people just not see their own capabilities, and it’s such a shame, right? Including myself, I’m the same, right? We all have blind spots, and that’s why you need a second and third pair of eyes to pinpoint those blind spots, so we can tweak it, and you can go out there and be your best self, or corporations can go out there and help their employees or organizations can empower, you know, their audience, individuals out there who need that, that just small shift to just move forward

Karan Rhodes  14:29

Absolutely. And I would chime in and say that you shouldn’t stereotype people based on their personalities or their mannerisms, meaning, you know, for me personally, I’m a over the chart extrovert. Have get my energy from people and talking and interacting, but I may appear out outwardly confident, and many times I am, but I do have moments of imposter syndrome as well as I’m sure it could be said for those who are introverts and all. The personality types in between. So just, just noting that we’re all human is, I think, very important as well. Don’t you agree?

Sheena Yap Chan  15:09

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I still deal with a lot of confidence issues too, right? Like, even though I talk about confidence, I mean, there’s days when I’m not confident, where I’m going through things where I’m not okay. And, you know, being in an Asian culture, and growing up in an Asian household, there’s a lot of things I still have to unlearn until today, because it’s been ingrained in my head for forever, right? Because it’s the same set of rules that’s been passed on from generation to generation to generation. And so I’m the one you know, like, then I have to learn to break that cycle. And if you’re like, the first one, you’re like, how do I do this? What do I do to do this? Like we’re figuring this out as we go. And so just because some people might see me, they think I’m confident half the time, I’m like, Oh my gosh. Should I do this? Should I press pause? Should I also go through imposter syndrome, self doubt, all these things? The difference is, I’ve equipped myself with tools and resources to get me out of it so that I can move faster. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with feeling self doubt. These are all normal, valid feelings that we go through, and if we suppress it, then it’s going to get worse, better. We just kind of feel it out, honor it, so that we can learn to let it go. And then new good feelings and energy will come through.

Karan Rhodes  16:20

Love that, love that. Well, you know, Sheena, what we always try to do as part of the podcast is, you know, leave our listeners with at least one tip or nugget at a minimum that they can take away from every guest. And you’ve been so fantastic in sharing a few already. But if there was one thing or suggestion that you would want to make sure all our listeners know about and remember past this podcast episode, what would it be?

Sheena Yap Chan  16:51

I think the one tip I would tell people is that just take small steps. You know, you don’t have to make big leaps to make big changes. It’s actually the small, actionable daily steps that yield the big results. So an example I love giving is like writing a book, because everyone wants to write a book, and, you know, a lot of people are like, I want to write a book. It’s so hard, it’s so daunting. Like, you know, a lot of people have delayed it. You know, I’ve heard people who’s on year seven is still on page three. Or, you know, they’ve been thinking about it for 20 years. And so if you if Writing a book is something you really want to do, just set a small goal, right? Like, just say, for a whole year straight, I’m going to write one page a day, just one page a day. And if you can’t do one pages, do half a page, whatever it is, right? But we’re going to stick with one page a day. So if you were to write one page a day for a whole year straight, you’ll have one full book, or even two books, because you’ve been able to make that consistent daily action, that small, consistent daily action, you know, like I was able to interview over 800 women because I didn’t do all, like interview 800 women all at once. This, this is all over almost a 10 year course. So, you know, I just did it one woman at a time. So just take the small, actionable, daily steps, whatever that may look like for you.

Karan Rhodes  18:05

For you in your work environment, whatever you’re focused on, right in your own space, that’s amazing. What, in your opinion, are some of the well, we talked about culture and that upbringing, but what is a myth around self confidence that’s out there that you would love to get corrected or turn around.

Sheena Yap Chan  18:28

I think it’s just how self confidence looks. I mean, when I first started, I always thought you had to show up a certain way, like confidence was you showing up a certain way. And it’s really not, you know, when I think about it. Confidence is how you show up, right? So that means being your authentic self. And so if you’re an introvert, that’s totally fine. You can be an introvert and still be confident. And so so that was the misconception that I had, and I’m doing. And you know, with the podcast, learning to dismantle by showing all these different personalities building confidence, showing you different ways of building confidence so that you can relate to at least one person out of it, out of eight, over 800 women, that’s true.

Karan Rhodes  19:11

That’s true, and it could look differently, probably in different environments as well. Right? How I feel self confident and raising my family might be different than how I feel tackling a very complex initiative at work, right? It could be different things in different environment.

Sheena Yap Chan  19:30

For sure, like I’m confident in talking, but I’m not confident indancing.

Karan Rhodes  19:36

Yeah, right? Exactly, it definitely does. Well, um, Sheena, were there any other major points that you wanted to share with our listeners before we ask you our signature question?

Sheena Yap Chan  19:51

I think we’re pretty good. Oh, I think we’ve covered everything. So yeah, let’s go with this with the questions that you have.

Karan Rhodes  19:57

Okay, wonderful. Well, as you know, my. Firm did research on high potential leaders and organizations on how what were some of the key things they did to execute delete at the top of their game, and that’s where the book came from. But out of that, there were six buckets of activities that they were always mindful of, and you were so kind to share. I’m sorry seven buckets and that you were so kind to share that leading with courageous agility really resonated with you. And for my newer listeners, courageous agility is all about having the courage and the fortitude to take calculated risk but still move forward, even if it’s baby steps, especially if the future is uncertain or unclear. So basically, when you bullet down to is having the courage to still move forward, and no matter if you have to pivot or not, but still try to take those baby steps forward. So curious minds want to know Sheena, why courageous agility really resonated with you?

Sheena Yap Chan  21:00

Yeah. I mean, for so long in this, like, forging your own path, you’re always looking for the secret to success, right? Like, what’s the real secret to success? They think there’s, like, this vault with, like, the secret to everything, yeah, when the really there is other than, like, having that courageous agility, being persistent, being resilient, regardless of your circumstances, because you’re gonna have times where you get rejected 100 times, or you’re gonna fall down, or something happens, and so you have to be courageous enough to get back up and keep moving forward if you believe in what you’re doing. Of course, right? Sure. I mean, it’s not always easy, because if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Being your own boss is not easy. Like, you know, sometimes Instagram paints this like, picture of, like, having the fancy cars and things like that, but it took, you know, years to get to that place, right? Like, when people are like, well, I made $90,000 in 30 days. And, like, that’s great, but people don’t realize the struggle of the 10 years that that person went through to be able to do, you know, 90,000 in 30 days. I’m just making an example so we see time and time again successful people, how long it took them to get to where they are, the rejections, the many rejections, you know, the many times they’ve fallen down, the many times like athletes, the many times they’ve been injured, the many times that they missed the shots, things like that. And so even myself, right? I have to remind myself, like, just because you got rejected today, it’s not the end of the world. Like you can keep moving forward. You got a result. You’re gonna have more no’s than yes in this journey. And so that’s why it takes a lot of courageous agility to go out there and keep doing it. Or else, like you’re if you’re not like, then you’re just gonna give up and just not do it. So there’s no real secret to success, other than you just have this innate like ability to keep moving forward, to keep on going, regardless of the circumstances.

Karan Rhodes  22:49

Oh, I love that. That is so wonderful. That’s a mic drop right there. It’s a wonderful piece of advice. Thank you so much for sharing your perspectives on that. Now you know, of course, we’ll have a ton of information about you in our show notes, your bio link, all kinds of great ways and that people can try to find you and keep tabs of what you’re doing. But before I let you go, could you please share when your next book is coming out, if it hasn’t already, and then also want to give you air time to also share where they can find out more about you. You’re speaking in your company.

Sheena Yap Chan  23:23

Yeah, for sure. So first off, my newest book, bridging the confidence gap, how empowered women change your world, is available for pre order. It’s coming out in May of 2025 but you can pre order it now, and if you can send me a copy of your receipt, I also have some pre order exclusive bonuses just for you know, a simple thank you for taking that action. So you can pre order on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, indigo and other book retailers worldwide. You can check out my website, sheenayapchann.com if you want to reach out for services or speaking engagements, you can also, I have a free self confidence personality test that you can take as well that’s free to take. You can also check out my podcast, The Tao of Self Confidence on all major podcast platforms like Spotify Google. Oh no, there’s no more Google. Spotify YouTube, they just closed down. Yeah, Apple podcasts. You can also connect with me on social media, on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok, YouTube, but if you forgot anything I mentioned, oh, and also the book, my current book, The Tau Self Confidence that’s available to order on also all major book retailers. But if you forgot anything that I mentioned, just Google my name shine Yap Chan, because I’m the only sheenayapchan on the internet.

Karan Rhodes  24:34

Oh, are you sure? Are you positive?

Sheena Yap Chan  24:37

I’m sure. Yes. I’m positive.

Karan Rhodes  24:41

All right, listeners, where you heard that? Just Google Sheena Yap Chan, it will pop up and all of her information about her, and I’m sure you’ll be able to track her down and hopefully get to meet her. And for those of you that have you know, teams and companies that are really interested in helping to build self confidence, especially. Of your female employees, but to everyone as well, I definitely think you should check out her offerings, workshops, and you know, her speakers, real and everything, so definitely check her out. But Sheena, we thank you so much for the gift of your time. It was fantastic having you on the podcast.

Sheena Yap Chan  25:17

Thank you so much for having me. It was such an honor to be here today.

Karan Rhodes  25:20

Oh, awesome. It must continue success to you. Same to you. Thank you to listeners for the gift of your time as well. We know that there are literally millions of the podcasts that you could be listening to, and we do not take care of patronage lightly. We truly appreciate you. Please be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast platform choice, similar to Sheena, we’re a variety of platforms. There’s bound to be one you can find us on, to follow us, and please be sure to share our podcast with just one friend, because by doing so together, we can all learn how to better lead at the top of our game, take care and see you next week. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.