Episode 24 | Sabina Nawaz – Using Leadership Intelligence to Survive Unchartered Territory Within the Workplace with Sabina Nawaz

Sabina Nawaz  00:00

There are a lot of things keeping us up at night, there are a lot of things vying for our attention. And there’s this search for meaning and our connection to meaning and purpose between our own purpose and the purpose of the organization or institution where we work.

Voiceover  00:18

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:53

Hey there superstars, this is Karen and welcome to today’s episode. Being a leader in the world of work and business is definitely not for the faint of heart. A normal day commonly involves tackling topics and problems that you just haven’t faced before. And many leaders struggle in silence, when really they could tap into a valuable resource right at their fingertips. So on today’s show, I’m honored to have as our guest a friend and fellow executive coach Sabina Nawaz, who’s the founder and CEO of naoise executive consulting limited. She’s a very sought out coach and consultant whose unique superpower involves shepherding executives through high stakes decisions, while also galvanizing their team. Be sure to stay tuned after our conversation to listen to my closing segment called Karen’s take, where I share a tip on how to use insights from today’s episode to further sharpen your leadership acumen. And now enjoy the show. Hello, superstars This is Karen and welcome to today’s episode of the leader, the top of your game podcast. We have a supersize show for you all today. I’m very, very honored to have as our guest today. A dear colleague from our Microsoft days. Miss Sabina Nawaz, who is a global see, oh, a coach, a leadership expert and author, a TEDx talk gurus she’s just done some of everything. But I’m so honored to have her as our guest today. So welcome to the podcast. Sabina.

Sabina Nawaz  02:34

Thank you so much, Karen, for your enthusiasm, for inviting me. I’m looking forward to having supersize fun.

Karan Rhodes  02:41

Yes, I am as well. And we always talk listeners about having our guests open up their leadership playbook. Well, Sabina has an encyclopedia to share. But of course, we can’t get it all in our time together. But she does have a lot of stories and tidbits that I’m sure you’re gonna find valuable. Well, Sabina, before we get started, for as much as you feel comfortable, would you mind sharing with our audience a little bit about your personal background? Maybe where you grew up? And then maybe a few highlights of your career journey thus far.

Sabina Nawaz  03:18

Wow, how much time did you say we have? I’ll try and keep it short. I grew up in India and came as a junior transfer student in undergraduate University to Smith College, which is a small liberal arts women’s school in Massachusetts. And I got my bachelor’s in computer science and with a minor in electronics, and then did my Master’s at the University of Massachusetts and computer systems engineering. At that point, I sent out 180 job applications because I didn’t know where I would get a job. And the first company to call me and make an offer was Microsoft. Now, interestingly, I had not known about Microsoft back in those days, I had to look up who William H gates The third was, and decided on a lark to fly over to Seattle, and do the interview because I thought, hey, it’s a free trip. I’ve never been to Seattle. And by my second interview, I fell in love with the people with the vibe of the place and did software development for over nine years and then switched careers and ran the companies leadership development, executive development, management, development, succession planning all these things. Working with Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and the company’s leadership to shape and architect how we develop people, how we promote people, how we think strategically about organizations and their help from a people perspective. And did that for almost six years after since then, I have been running my own practice. is coaching CEOs, university presidents, executive directors of nonprofits, basically people at the top of the organization where the buck stops with that, on how they can become more aware, awake, aware, and effective in doing the very hard work that they need to do, especially in these times.

Karan Rhodes  05:26

And that’s amazing. And as I mentioned, listeners, Sabina, and I had the pleasure of sometimes working together on leadership development projects. But she had such a well rounded extensive career at Microsoft, because you were there almost 14 years to write.

Sabina Nawaz  05:45

Yes, yes. 15. Yeah,

Karan Rhodes  05:48

I was 14. So, but I’ve mine was all in either human resources are a leadership development. And then yours was both on the business side and the executive side as well. So we’ve had quite a journey together. So because listeners that we have such an expert on our show, what I’ve asked them to do is kind of share a little bit about what she is seeing trends that are going on with her clients and executive coaching, because she deals with individuals from all industries, at the highest levels. She’s very in touch with some of the global aspects as well, that is touching the world of work. And so I thought it would be invaluable to hear about what some of these business leaders are facing right now. What is top of mind for them and keeping them up at night? So Savannah, why don’t you share maybe one of the first you know, things that you’re seeing trends that you’re seeing with your coaching clients?

Sabina Nawaz  06:51

Karen, there are so many things, and it’s it’s hard these days, where the shifting sands every day you wake up, and there’s a new set of challenges, major challenges and an epic scale. And they’re evolving so fast. So this is really a point in time. When COVID first started, I, after a while my clients all wanted to meet with me on Friday. And they said, because I want to meet with you on Friday, because you tell me all the trends that have happened that week, you know, this week is permission week this week is empathy week, because these things were literally traumatizing, if that’s a word by week. So now, what I’m noticing is a few different things. And one of them is around managing our energy. And by energy, I mean, how everything from, there are a lot of things keeping us up at night, there are a lot of things vying for our attention. And there’s this search for meaning and our connection to meaning and purpose between our own purpose and the purpose of the organization or institution where we work. So all of those take up energy. There is also tied with your book, Karen, around stakeholder management, and how much energy is that taking up these days? Compared to before, because we’re all in the same soup of the pressures coming from so many different places. So that energy piece is is a big one right now around how do we manage the energy? How do we stave off burnout? How do we keep people’s attention where they are versus that great resignation? The Great Migration? Yeah, that’s a big piece today

Karan Rhodes  08:35

It is huge. And you’re right there. So right and spot on. In the last section of my book I talk about like what it takes to be. And you remember this term, a true leadership athlete, right? It’s all about a lot of mind, body and soul. Passions, priorities, energy management, it’s a lot that mindfulness, it’s a lot that goes into that. And usually there’s a new challenge every day for most leaders, especially at the levels that you’re coaching at. And they’re having to kind of start each new day with a perspective on what it takes for them to be at their best for that particular day. Am I correct or no?

Sabina Nawaz  09:18

Absolutely, absolutely. It’s all of those. It’s also about how do you meet other people where they are? This is not business as usual. This is not, oh, I have an agenda as the boss and I’m going to direct you on it or I’m going to delegate it to you I’m gonna empower you know, you might not be ready for receiving that whole fire hose of information from me. So how do I SAS out where are you and meet you where you are? This doesn’t mean that you get a free ride. So it’s a it’s a tension that we need to manage between care and challenge and getting the work done. And I love that it’s also about really validating other people’s experiences and holding the space for experiences that are different than our own. There was a great, one of those memes that floated around in LinkedIn. That said, we’re not all in the same boat. We’re on the same storm in different boats. Hmm.

Karan Rhodes  10:19

Interests interesting.

Sabina Nawaz  10:20

It’s not true. Right. Some of us have a huge mega yacht, and some of us have a kayak. And some of us have a rowboat, and we need different tools to propel us and mobilize us where it may be all heading in the same direction. But we’re going to need different tools, different kinds of fuel to get us there, and a different sense of understanding of what it’s like for the person in the rowboat. The kayak the yacht? Yeah,

Karan Rhodes  10:47

I love that analogy. And you’re you’re so right, we’re not all the same. Our our dynamic that we’re dealing with is probably a lot different than the person in the boat or yacht or rowboat next to us. You’re right,

Sabina Nawaz  11:01

Exactly. And it’s also to me, it brings up the point about pacing. And I coach people more and more about how do you pace the work right now? You are working at warp speed, because you’ve had three months to think about things. Let’s say you were in the yard, and the yard kicks up a great, huge big week. That’s actually going to slow down the rowboat. Yeah. Because now they they’re not only navigating the waters without a an automatic engine, they’re also having to stave off the effects of the wake.

Karan Rhodes  11:36

No, I agree. I agree so much. And I’m curious Sabina, at the executive levels, d see leaders suffering from either fear or impostor syndrome or uncertainty about how to guide their teams because of the hugely dynamic nature in the world of work? Are you seeing more of them feeling a little bit more confident, but you know, just needing a push in your you know, via your coaching? I’m just curious how they’re, they’re feeling these days?

Sabina Nawaz  12:11

Yeah, that first part, Karen, it’s, it’s really uncertain and Uncharted, uncharted territory, there is no, there is no leadership book on how to navigate this kind of situation and no crystal ball that tells us what’s coming next. What’s the formula? This is not where you can apply a tried and true standard operating procedure. So there is there is, what did you say before imposter syndrome, you use the term?

Karan Rhodes  12:42

Oh, I was saying? Did they have impostor syndrome or fear of failing?

Sabina Nawaz  12:47

Yeah, fear. So my latest Harvard Business Review article is about fear, and how we deal with fear in the workplace and what’s going on in the workplace. So, so definitely a lot of fear is palpable, both because of the macroeconomic climate, but also, because of everything else that’s going on in the economy is just one part of it. In the past, that would have been all consuming. And just one slice of everything that we have to face. The imposter syndrome, for sure is coming up, even at the highest levels, you know, they’re also human beings. And so they are susceptible to the same fears, uncertainties and doubts that the rest of us are. And when we don’t have answers, and when we’ve gotten promoted up the chain, we’re used to having answers. We’re used to be rewarded for having answers. Yeah, we have to let people down. By going, I don’t know we have to come up with this collectively, it’s not just a single point of knowledge, a single font of expertise. If we have to co create the space we’re in, and the destination we’re going to go to, in fact, we have to co create the definition of that destination. Therefore, it’s really easy for people who are used to having the answers and being patted on the head for that to feel inadequate. And ill equipped to go How do I lead without answers? And I think that is a big challenge of our times today for executives is how do I lead without answers?

Karan Rhodes  14:31

There it is right there. You’re so right. I’m seeing that with my clients as well. They’re just struggling. And they find a way I find, you know, as you talk through it with them and help them plan and ask the rich questions of them. But they’re uncertain and they’re struggling and those leaders that are the most resilient and taking the most data to take the best calculated risks that they can seem to be those that are the most successful, those that are a little squirmy and not quite sure. Those are the ones I have seen. Yes, yeah, it’s a little bit more work to do in the coaching realm.

Sabina Nawaz  15:11

Exactly. Karen. And I don’t know if you’re seeing this, but the one of the pieces that really sets them apart and builds that resilience is the capacity to reflect. Yeah, we’re so used to jumping in the fray and doo doo doo. Yeah. And when there are no answers, there is no solution, you have to learn your way into a solution. And learning requires that reflection. So you dip your toe, you gather some data, you reflect, you dip your toe, again, you gather more data. So it’s you build the next step. And the next step iteratively, based on what you’re learning each time, and those who are not just learning themselves, but are transparent about that, as opposed to pretending like they have the answers. And building a culture of learning. Those are the ones who who stand apart in my mind.

Karan Rhodes  16:00

Mine too, mine too. 100% agree on that. So I’m Sabina, let’s give you an opportunity to share maybe another trend that you’re seeing from your clients right now,

Sabina Nawaz  16:14

One of the trends is around increasing their their skills around communication. When it comes to right now, of course, especially in the tech sector, but many other places like a lot of nonprofits that depend on the tech sector, for example, for donations, and so many other places, we’re seeing layoffs, and layoffs are so emotionally fraught, there’s so difficult for everyone involved, the person, of course, who’s on the receiving end of it, the people who are left behind the people who have to make the decision and decide who gets to stay and who gets to leave, and then communicate that. So that’s one area where we have to be really mindful of how we communicate. Yeah, there are areas around diversity, equity belonging, that we have to become much more aware of how we communicate, and what is the impact of our communication. There are many socio political issues that didn’t traditionally used to be part of the workplace. That’s right now, there’s no doubt that the boundaries have melded so how do you communicate? What do you say? What do you not say? How do you create an environment that’s inclusive of people who might have values that clash with your own that right and create enough of that safety? So I am noticing a lot around communication and, and expanding the range. You know, like, you have vocal range for a singer, you’re expanding that communication range for each executive on not just using that tried and true methods. But additional ways to, to connect not just with the minds, but with the hearts of people. As we go through these emotionally gutting experiences.

Karan Rhodes  18:06

You’re so spot on Sabina? And I’m just curious. And if you don’t have one, that’s totally fine. I don’t want to put you on the spot. But when a leader struggling with that, how do you coach them on tackling? Do you have them? Brainstorm a few approaches? And then you all kind of work together and look at the pros and cons and talk them through? Or do you do other things?

Sabina Nawaz  18:30

Well, I don’t start with the mechanics of the communication. I start by looking under the hood to say, what’s getting in the way of your communication? And why. So recently, I was working with somebody who had to lay off a bunch of people. And they were really the language was overly I would call it more verbose than it needed to be more flowery, if you will. A lot of qualifiers before words like this is absolutely without a doubt, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, what’s the actual word? When are you going to get that you’ve just spent to the point to get to this word. And I know these are culturally there’s cultural differences, but this was in North America. And, and what we got underneath that was their discomfort, their pain of inflicting this pain on people they had hand selected to be part of the organization, people who they thought were high performers, this was not a way for them to weed out poor performers. These were people they would hire again in a heartbeat interest. And so what we looked at is what was behind getting using too many words. And it turned out it was this discomfort. So we have to talk through that and figure out How to Adjust the language based on the discomfort they were feeling. The other thing they tended to do then is use terms that were more definite than actually they then the reality, for example, they might say, Oh, I’m gonna make sure we will never have layoffs again, you know,

Karan Rhodes  20:26

Something that I can’t guarantee, right?

Sabina Nawaz  20:28

That’s not within your control.

Karan Rhodes  20:30

Right?  Right. This was a, this was a medium sized organization, a couple 1000 people. That’s a lot of burn rate. And what will happen if your sales don’t take off? You might have to do that again. So, so being really mindful about what weaving in, and all of this was because they felt bad. And they wanted to, to solve the sting, or the immediate sting. And what was instead showing up is that they’re showing up as more anxious. Yeah, if you show up as that anxious, it’s going to leak into the psyche of your people. It will. And it can also create distrust, if there’s contradictions in your message, right?

Sabina Nawaz  21:17

Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

Karan Rhodes  21:21

Yeah, absolutely. So something to think of a time where, and I don’t want you to mention the company or any name, since I’m going to keep everybody protected. But think of a time with one of your clients where they were in the midst of what I call a leadership fail, if you will, or they’re struggling not doing as well as they needed to do or made a major misstep in executing their role. What’s an example of a root cause that you all worked out? What was the root cause of them making a misstep? What is an example of one?

Sabina Nawaz  22:03

Again, Karen, how much time do we have? These are some of the times when people come to me most as I’m sure they come to you as well. Yeah. One of them was I’ll call this person Adam. That’s not their real name, who was initially killing it, but business results, doing a great job. Awesome, awesome, and super smart, super intellectually smart. And then got called into the boss’s office thought that it was about a promotion. And instead, it was a call to the principal’s office. So it was it was, I’m getting a lot of complaints about how you’re leading, you’re being a jerk, and a bully, and you are not getting a promotion. In fact, you better shape up or else. And so this was this big moment of reckoning for Adam. And we worked together, I interviewed almost two dozen of Adam’s colleagues, direct reports, peers, management, so on. And they had just terrible things to say about it, of how he was coming across really harshly, how he made jokes that cut, how he cut people down and other ways, how he interrupted folks all the time, that it seemed like he wanted to show up as the smartest person in the room, and so on. No, the big realization for Adam was that I mean, the first I don’t know if there was a single root cause there was so many issues, but one of them was that Adam actually had no idea he was coming across that way. He was had no idea because it’s it’s a because no one shared the feedback with no one’s heard the feedback because they were scared of him. And the more scared they are, the less honest they are, the less honest they are, the less he knows. So he continues to bully and badger people. So becomes a negative loop. Yeah. And, and it’s a mess. So first, he had no idea. So his job was just scraping the floor. The second is that he actually thought the things he was doing. He was doing them deliberately because he thought they were good for the business.

Karan Rhodes  24:24

Oh, gee. So the gut punch to him realizing how Yeah, really.

Sabina Nawaz  24:31

The reason I speed people along is I have lots of experience here. I’ve done several mergers and acquisitions. I know exactly what needs to be done. So I’m cutting to the chase right and you’re cutting to the chase but you’re making everyone else look stupid in the process. And, and so how can you do both and yeah, versus either or, and so one, so that was a big moment for him is understanding one. Nobody is telling me the truth because of of how I’m coming across. And it’s that it’s a cycle that feeds on itself. And secondly, the very things I think are good for the business are actually completely boomeranging and throwing up all over, over me. So so that was one, one example. And another one was this CEO who comes across as incredibly forceful, very sort of dominant in meetings. And, and often when you have a title, you’re already people give you a lot of sort of pedos pedestal room. But also His personality was pretty, like, let’s get to it. And he spoke up early, and he spoke up often. So he comes across as this very, quote unquote, strong personality. Yet he had three people on his leadership team of eight, who were not the right fit, they were they were creating a pretty toxic environment, they were also not getting the work done. There were a lot of problems. And he tolerated that for way too long. To the point that good people then started leaving. And so what we recognized was, even though he presented at this as this very strong personality, dominant person in the room, inside, he was really soft hearted. And it was really hard for him to pull the trigger on somebody to say, Okay, you’re out here. And what he wasn’t realizing is that by not doing that, that was a decision as well. Yes. And that decision was impacting, instead of three people it was impacting hundreds of people.

Karan Rhodes  26:45

Or whole teams. Yeah, amazing. And did he find the courage or the resiliency to kind of course, correct a bit and changing his behaviors?

Sabina Nawaz  26:56

Absolutely. No, we’ve worked through a lot of it. They did the those three people did exit, he almost had to start from scratch to rebuild. So you definitely need a lot of resilience to rebuild, and has been doing great has, it was a very expensive, but helpful lesson on not just who to attract, but how to build a team that played well with each other.

Karan Rhodes  27:24

Excellent. And I bet he will remember that. That is probably the rest of your life, right? Oh, wonderful. What’s that mean? I also want to feature your expertise in a lot of your services, because listeners, for those that aren’t familiar, Sabina does a lot of writing for like the Harvard Business Review. Gosh, I don’t even know all the publications. There’s like, I’m not sure if you’re doing Forbes but I’ve seen you in was an Anchor, there was another business

Sabina Nawaz  27:54

Inc, Wall Street Journal, Business Review. Yeah,

Karan Rhodes  27:57

She’s everywhere. And one of the things that I always love about her articles is she always couches it and a story, a brief story that helps you give context, it makes it real for you, and then talks about how to work through the situation or solution. So you definitely need to follow her, her writings. But in addition to that, Sabina, if if individuals who are interested in considering an executive coach, and want to check you out, can you give some thoughts on how they can, you know, reach you?

Sabina Nawaz  28:29

Absolutely. I mean, they can go to my website, Sabinanawaz.com, or my LinkedIn profile, but the best way would probably be to go to, say, a Harvard Business Review and check out my articles. Because Karen, as you said, we can all talk theory, but stories that would bring it to life from a practical perspective. And and remember, I was, I was raised as an engineer in my profession. So once an engineer always an engineer, is what’s the practical payoff here. And those stories will show you exactly how this situation and this person dealt with this particular challenge. I have often had my, my phone ring, after one of my articles gets published, and the person goes, How did you know me? You don’t know me, but that was me you were writing about? Because, you know, we all like to think we’re special and we’re different. And I jokingly tell my clients or affectionately tell my clients are not special. You know, they’re known exactly what you’re experiencing makes a lot of sense. What you’re experiencing is very normal and normative. So look at those scenarios, and if you if those scenarios seem familiar to you, yeah. You may not even need to hire me as a coach. You can read my articles and follow the advice there and see what how far you get,

Karan Rhodes  29:49

Right. But you know, they’re gonna want to talk to you because they probably have more to work out than they can just get from an article but it is a definite window into some of your insight and your expertise, so I just wanted to make sure we get that an extra plug. Thank you. All right. Well, before we let you out of your end listeners, we will have information about Sabina in the show notes. So be sure to check that out, there will be those links that we mentioned as well. But we’re going to end with our final segment called Full Disclosure. And civility we It will never be a gotcha question. But we like to end with some fun facts about yourself. The two don’t mind sharing. So my first question to you is, what was your first job ever? Was it Microsoft? or were there other things that you didn’t India?

Sabina Nawaz  30:42

First job as like a professional first job that I got paid money for? Yes. Okay. That was when I was, I think it was, I think it 12 or early teens. And I had to tutor, a girl who was three or four years older than me neurodiverse and tutored her in English and math. And I think I started to tap into my love of growing people from that first job.

Karan Rhodes  31:09

That is amazing. I did not know that about you. Oh, that’s fantastic. Oh, where is one of your favorite places to go on vacation?

Sabina Nawaz  31:20

That is such a tough question. I love going to so many places. I love love, love to travel. So I’ll just refer to our most recent trip, which was an epic trip to Iceland.

Karan Rhodes  31:33

I have not been to Iceland yet. What did you love one thing that you loved about Iceland?

Sabina Nawaz  31:37

These one things are killing me Karen. Actually, and if you’re planning a trip to Iceland, I’ll send you the link that my son did this video for for the whole trip, which is really incredible. Yes, I definitely want to take a look. Yeah, so Iceland in 15 days by powder hound or something like that. But I’ll send you the link. And I think the one thing I would say is the is the diversity of natural beauty and the scale of the natural beauty because in the same trip, you’re seeing geysers and glaciers, like separated by a half hour journey. You’re seeing volcanic craters, and you’re seeing miles and miles of just empty land. So the contrast is stunning.

Karan Rhodes  32:30

Oh, that is amazing. Well, it’s definitely on my bucket list. So we’ll have to huddle afterwards and send me that link so I can take a look. And then my final question for you. What is one thing or hobby that you do that most people don’t know? or what have you one unique thing about you?

Sabina Nawaz  32:56

Well, before I had kids, it was stunt fighting. I did a lot of theater work. And I was getting trained in stunt fighting, and I just loved it. Now, I am not doing that. But the thing that perhaps most people don’t know is as many times as I can, but at least once a week, I joined a barley X class, which is a hit workout. But it’s too great music. And so I just leave with a grin on my face.

Karan Rhodes  33:31

I can only imagine I can only imagine and you get a workout to, right.

Sabina Nawaz  33:36

Absolutely.

Karan Rhodes  33:39

Oh, that’s wonderful. Well, thank you Miss Sabina for being such a sport on our final segment of full disclosure. And then once again, thank you for being on our podcast and given us the gift of your time and expertise. And we really appreciate it.

Sabina Nawaz  33:56

Karen, thank you so much for the connection and happy to answer any questions people have. As they reach out, please do reach out if you have questions.

Karan Rhodes  34:07

All right. So audience members, please do check out the show notes reach out to Sabina I promise you you won’t be disappointed. She’s an excellent excellent coach and colleague. And also share this episode with your friends also like aerated so that we can expand our reach. And we look forward to speaking with you on the next episode. You take care. Bye bye. Well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today with Sabina Nawaz, founder and CEO of naoise executive consulting limited links to her bio are entered into our leadership playbook. And additional resources can be found in the show notes but on your favorite podcast platform of choice and on the website at lead your game podcast.com And now for Karen’s take on today’s topic of leading through uncharted territory You know, when reflecting on my past consulting engagements, I wish I had $1. For every time I’d hear the executive leader say, you know, Karen, we’ve never been here before. And if you’re a leader and you’re leading through times of ambiguity, it can really feel like a constant punch in the gut, especially when your job or business is on the line right? When nothing is written, and no path is marked, and no rules apply anymore. You may ask yourself, How in the world can we reinvent our leadership to bring about courage, commitment, resiliency, and creativity? And while the answer will depend upon your specific situation, I do want to share three quick tips for you to keep in mind. The first is the simple a powerhouse of a problem solving team. What I mean by this is pull together individuals who have the best knowledge, skills and abilities to help you build an informed strategy to address whatever it is you’re facing. The second tip is to remember that credibility at this time matters more than ever, all your team or audience wants to know is what you’re going to do to lead them out of the chaos. And I truly advocate, communicate, communicate, communicate, and have that communications back in, they’re going to create a story in their heads which may result in you know, really catapulting their level of angst to an insanely destructive high. And then the third tip I’d love to share is to be willing to ditch your assumptions to MIT zero wrong, if necessary. This is the moment that you should listen to a diversity of perspectives, experiment and try new things. And if you face failure, just own it, and move on by course correcting easily embarrassed leaders don’t get very far in times of crisis. And if you are colleague are facing difficult times in the world of work, and could use a thought leader or coach, definitely reach out to me at Karan KR am at Schokolade different.com. And I’ll be happy to help you personally, or connect you with an expert who can. And please be sure to share our podcast with your network of supporters, because we’d love to share tips with them as well as we can use additional subscribers. Thank you so much for your support of the elite at the top of your game podcast. Thanks for listening, and see you next week. Bye bye. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast where we help you lead your seat at any employer business or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, bonus resources and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leisure game podcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled k r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of shockingly different leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people talent development and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on demand project or contract basis. Teach thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Bye for now.