Episode 25 | The Keys to Men Transforming Into Fearless Allies for Women and BIPOC with Jeffery Tobias Halter

.,H Jeffery Tobias Halter  00:00

Men are still, according to McKinsey, 73% of leadership, senior leadership, in companies toda. I believe they’re 73% of the problem, but they’re also 73% of the solution. Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:52

Hey there superstars, this is Karen and thanks for joining another podcast episode designed to help you better lead at the top of your own game. You know, during the last three years, the term allyship has become mainstream in our vernacular, right? And, and this is largely due to the increase in awareness of social injustice that occurs in our communities every single day. However, I’d be remiss if I didn’t call out how individuals and companies really continue to struggle with how to make allyship real and meaningful for all. So on today’s show, I’m honored to have Dr. Jeffrey Tobias Halter, the president of YWomen and it’s the letter y w o m e n, YWomen is a strategic consulting company focused on engaging men in women’s and people of color’s, leadership advancement. I met Jeffrey at an association dinner where we were both in at the same table and he was just happened to be keynoting. And we had such a rich conversation. I knew I wanted to have him on the podcast one day and he has graciously agreed to be our guest today. And as a Caucasian male, he is uniquely positioned to influence and coach leaders, you know, those who look like him on how to best take accountability for doing better, and being allies in the workplace, and especially in a way that doesn’t misaligned with their values. You’re gonna really enjoy listening to how Jeffrey does this in a very meaningful way. And be sure to stay tuned for about two minutes after the episode to listen to my closing segment called coherence tape, where I share a tip on how to use insights from today’s episode to further sharpen your leadership acumen. And now enjoy the show. Hi, there superstars. This is Karen and welcome to today’s episode, I am super excited to have a person that I met at a professional conference and was so mesmerized with him that he was always on my list to try to get on the podcast interview. And after about half a year, we actually able to secure some time with them. So we’re so thrilled to have Mr. Jeffrey Tobias halter, who is the president of why women which is a strategic consulting company that focuses on engaging men in women’s leadership development. So welcome, Jeffrey to the podcast.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  03:27

Yeah, thanks. Thanks. I’m glad we can make this work.

Karan Rhodes  03:30

I am say I absolutely am. And as you know, Jeffrey, it’s been in the news, it’s nothing new. It’s been in the news for a years about the struggles for women leaders in the workplace to get the recognition, pay equity, you know, you name it to be on an equal level as their male counterparts. And you were part is the first I would say that came to my attention anyway, a group of executive men who really made it a point to embrace that advocacy. So but before we get down in and talk about that a little bit more, I’d love for you to share with the audience this a little bit about your personal background.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  04:14

Yeah, sure. Thank you. And thank you for having me on. If you had told me 22 years ago, I’d be doing this work, I would have laughed at you. I’m a I’m a sales guy. I spent the first 20 years of my career in sales and sales management. This actually has a big impact on my work because I’m constantly trying to drive back to what is the business imperative? What is the leadership imperative to advancing women and other underrepresented groups, but I was actually doing a leading a sales training effort. When they came to me and said, We want you to lead diversity education at the Coca Cola company. And I laughed and said, I’m a straight white guy. What do I know about diversity? But it was a pretty good trainer. And so I took on this project. And I really didn’t know what I didn’t know, I would sit in class every day and hear stories from friends and colleagues about racism and sexism that I did not even know what was occurring. And so I had what they call a white male epiphany, where you realize what white male privilege is, and the world revolves around you. And I didn’t choose to become an advocate at that point. But I chose to get curious. And over the next 10 years, I would really explore best practices, talk to people, and really figure out what the missing link was. And in my mind, the missing link is men, women and people of color and other underrepresented groups have been talking to each other for the last 40 years. And yet the numbers don’t change. And so I saw an opportunity in the marketplace, my belief is that men are still, According to McKinsey 73% of leadership, senior leadership in companies today. I believe they’re 73% of the problem. But they’re also 73% of the solution. And so that’s the company that I launched 12 years ago now, and that was to find men. Ready now, man, and there’s a lot of men out there who want to help and give them the how, what do you want me to do on a daily basis? I kind of get the concept. What do you want me to do? Right? And so that’s what I do. Primarily, my audience is fortune 100 companies, and I do keynotes and, and talks. And, and so that’s what I do.

Karan Rhodes  06:44

That is absolutely amazing. And I’m curious, Jeffrey, because I know you’ve done a lot of your research on your own and have partnered with Oregon to other organizations and read other studies like McKinsey studies and what have you. What has been your big couple of aha was when you double down on this work? What was some of the big lessons learned or understandings about where men struggle in the workplace to be allies?

Jeffery Tobias Halter  07:13

Yeah, even before, you know, the the men struggle part, I think organizations struggle. And you know, you and I were talking before we came on, about strategic decision making, right. And this is my big challenge for most organizations, they have a number of programs that are designed to drive diversity, equity and inclusion. Most companies today lack an end to end integrated business strategy with scorecards, measures metrics and accountability. And it drives me crazy when really well meaning volunteers, employee resource groups are asked to take on, you know, advancing women or advancing people of color when there’s no strategy for sales when there’s no strategy for marketing when there’s no strategy for supply chain. And so the smart companies have figured out this end to end solution. So you start with a strategy. And then coming out of the back end, there’s rigor and scorecards and measures and metrics to hold people accountable, just like we would any other thing. And the other piece of advice I’ll give you, and it just drives me crazy. I hear companies, as well as dei practitioners saying, Why are companies on a journey? We’re on the diversity journey. I was never on a sales journey, right? If I didn’t make my sales goal every quarter every year, they would fire me, right? And so we need people go on journeys, I’m still on a journey of understanding companies implement long term strategic plans. And the day we can get leaders to have that 15 second elevator speech around what why are we doing this, then we can start to hold people accountable, and then we can drive systemic change in organizations.

Karan Rhodes  09:21

You know, I so agree with you on so many levels, Jeffrey, because when I consult with my clients, I tell them that, to your point, they need a deep strategy that is measured. And there is a role for everyone in the organization to help support that strategy. So just as you have, you know, business strategies, this is a strategy as well, right? Some of them, the roles are different and it really burns me up when they’re asking, as you mentioned, the underrepresented groups or the RE employee resource groups to be the champions have whatever it is that they’re trying to champion, a lot of them do not want to be in that role. They want to be part of the solution and help embrace it, but they don’t want to be the chief driver. You’re right.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  10:18

You know, and Karen, it sounds self. It sounds selfish, right? When when women are talking about advocating for women are very self-serving, right? You know what, when I stand in front of an executive leadership team and talk about advancing underrepresented groups, I have no equity in this situation. And it just and it’s their unconscious bias, that they’re not even aware of, that you and I could be in front of the same group, say the exact same thing. And, and oh, no, Karen’s playing the black card, or she’s playing a women’s card. And, and this And herein lies the problem and said, why we need men?

Karan Rhodes  11:00

Which, yes, because that’s who they are. A lot of individuals will relate to, you know, who are in positions of leadership power. And it, I think it makes them open their ears a little bit when they can see someone that looks like them, and thinks like them, also embrace this effort as well. So Jeffrey, Woody, why do you think this work is so important? Now? I mean, we’ve had this issue for years, it’s been written on 50 million times. Oh, my gosh, I hear well, now,

Jeffery Tobias Halter  11:33

You know, I think it goes to this simple element. I was talking to a senior leader the other day. And we were talking about the Great Recession, and the post COVID world and the leaky pipeline for women and people of color. And he said, I just want things to go back to normal. And you know, what normals left the station, there is no new normal there is surviving every day. But I think what’s really driving this that you know, and you know, I encourage everyone go out and read the McKinsey women in the workforce study, it gives you all this facts and data and to reference a couple of things. But, you know, for every one woman that gets promoted to actually lead the company, because they don’t see a pathway. They’re blocked, even though they’re really bright and talented. So there’s a leaky pipeline. Today, there’s 11 million job openings in this country, and about 4% unemployment, which says there is a shortage of pika, job, chemists, cooks, food servers, truck drivers, IT professionals, sales people, there is no industry that is not being affected today. And the smart companies are the ones who are going to win. And what does that look like? Well, it looks like look at Deloitte. Look at PwC, the consulting companies had to figure it out. They actually published transparency reports, which says, Here’s what our workforce looks like, here, we have pay equity. And this is what our pipeline looks like. Now, the reason they did this was, you know, because they want to attract talent, because Consulting has been upended, you know, millennials, Gen Z don’t want to get on an airplane and fly someplace. 40 weeks a year. Yeah. So they had to figure it out. But how many industries haven’t figured it out? And they are really hurting? They’re really hurting. And then this is all exacerbated by the fact that boomers are retiring, right? Primarily old white guys. You know, we’re, we’re about two years away from all being gone. But for the last 20 years, three and a half million boomers left the workforce, they were only replaced by about a million workers. And most of those many of those didn’t have college degrees. Right? So so people are sitting around going, where’d all the talent go? Well, we’re gone. And the talent replacing us is 85% women, people of color, millennial, or Gen Z. So if you just look at representation, it looks a lot different than me. And yet, if you look at leadership in those companies, it still looks like me. That’s right. You know, that’s what’s driving this today. This this new normal business challenges, pain points, broken pipelines, and it’s gonna get a lot worse before it gets better when companies just say, I gotta do whatever I need to do.

Karan Rhodes  14:48

Yes, I totally agree. I totally agree. So, you know, so let’s turn it into like, we needed a few things for our playbooks. You know, they’re our audience here are Mostly those that are in the corporate world of companies of different sizes, but they’re in the world of business, and a lot of them to be honest with you are males and Caucasian males in the workforce. So what do you share with our few tools or tips that you can share of how men in the workforce can own being a great ally?

Jeffery Tobias Halter  15:23

Yeah, there’s really, you know, in this, and again, we, you know, we were talking earlier, it’s around this stakeholder savvy. It’s around understanding what the barriers are, before we can even get into how do we overcome those. So again, I go back to the McKinsey Report, just fabulous. Information, there are about 10 barriers that women and women of color specifically are facing McKinsey doesn’t differentiate men of color. So I’m not giving you that data. But basically, all of these things conspire to make it feel harder to advance women, women get less support from senior, less access to senior leaders, women receive less support for managers, starting with their very first job. microaggressions are a reality. The most common one is, I’m talked over in a meeting. So I’m gonna give you a little anecdote for your listeners to take back. This is something so simple, I was doing an event and there was a bunch of scientists. And about 10 days after the event, I got a call from a senior chemist. And he said, you made a comment that women are talked over interrupted multiple times during the day, and I didn’t believe it, I needed my own data. So this man kept a tally sheet of every time a woman was interrupted, or her ideas stolen. Wow. And he reached 20 circumstances in a week. We’ve had data Wow. And now we’re in zoom world, where the loudest voice the camera goes to. So not only are we We’re interrupted, you’re being taken off camera.

Karan Rhodes  17:16

That’s right.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  17:17

You know!? So Another little tip, can we just have people raise their hand before they want to talk?

Karan Rhodes  17:24

That’s a great point.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  17:24

It’s that simple. Wow. And then, you know, one of the other key elements, and this was straight out of the McKinsey Report. And they talked about the fact that women of color, face even greater challenges than white women, and they’re almost three times as likely to be the only one in the room, they are almost much more likely to say they have to cover when they come in to work, they have to leave a part of themselves behind amongst self proclaimed male and female female being white women. 60% of people who are self proclaimed allies for Advancing Women of Color, less than 10% of them mentor, a woman of color. So think about that. I mean, if there’s one really easy thing you can do it start mentoring someone who doesn’t look like you.

Karan Rhodes  18:18

That is fantastic. And that’s such an easy and basic that almost anyone can do you know, it’s not intimidating. Mentoring. Yes. No, absolutely.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  18:30

So I’m gonna wrap up with with kind of the four additional barriers, and I’m gonna go through these quickly. No, go ahead. But but it’s this notion of what what is holding men back from being active advocates. One is a lack of empathy. Men will say, you know, okay, I get it. Women are having a different experience in the workplace. But is it really that big of a deal? Is it is it really that big a deal? The second one is apathy. It’s 2023. Why are we still having this conversation? Oh, by the way, I get this from millennial women all the time. This was my mother’s conversation, pretty lack of accountability. If my boss never asked me about it, if the company doesn’t put any real teeth into it, come on. It’s not that important. That’s right. And then the last one is fear. Men are scared to death that they will say or do the wrong thing, which results in a loss of power. And they’re additionally fearful in giving honest feedback to black women. The research just shows that I’m on pins and needles because you might play the race card, when in fact, I’m trying to give you feedback for performance. But it’s just easier for me to do nothing to just kind of be benign and say, Well, you know, you’re a good performer. Oh, maybe you should do this as opposed to really honest feedback, which we know they’re giving other people in The organization. So the way to overcome these is very simple. It’s listen, learn, lead, and have the will. So to overcome a lack of empathy, go and have a conversation with someone who’s not like you. And just ask them go have coffee, have a virtual coffee, and say, I live heard from this speaker that men and women are having a different experience. What does that look like for you? And oh, by the way, for your listeners, don’t be surprised if Janet doesn’t want to volunteer any information. Janet doesn’t want to be the flagbearer for all women are all women of color. Ask again, what don’t I understand, you know, I genuinely want to know. And she might start to put some things out there, for God’s sakes, don’t interrupt her. Don’t mansplain Oh, I get that. Just listen. And then ask a third time. And in that last 10 minutes, you’re going to hear root cause issues you could not have imagined. But it’s not just individuals who need to do this senior leaders need to do this, they need to go out and have circles and Representative circles and do step level and really find out what’s going on in the organization. This really simple task opens eyes, and then you can start to address apathy. And that’s around learning. You have to engage in the data, you have to learn how to take this idea known as DNI, to an operating business model, what does it look like on a daily basis when I’m doing this work? Am I doing diverse slates? Am I doing diverse panels? Am I holding people accountable? And that has to be driven as far down in the organization as you can. And then you have to lead? And if you’re in a senior leadership role, you need to ask tough questions. Why don’t we have any women who are ready to be promoted? You know, why don’t we have any people of color in the pipeline? You know, what, what’s, what’s the problem here? And I’ve even heard really powerful leaders say, so what you’re telling me is you don’t have the skill and ability to develop people, unlike you. Is that what you’re telling me? Well, you know, what, if I’m an SVP, I only got to hear that one time before I figure out what’s going on. But leadership is also around controlling what you can control. So if you’re an individual contributor, I just want you to do one thing, I want you to have a woman’s back. So when Karen gets cut off, you don’t have to come in over the top, just say, hey, wait a second, could we let Karan finish saying what she was saying? Before we move on, or when someone takes your idea that you raised 10 minutes earlier, and it wasn’t meaningful? Be that voice so hey, wait a second, Karen had that idea 10 minutes ago, and we didn’t think was very good. And then the last part, overcome fear, you really have to have the will. And I find this takes a personal connection. And, and, and for me and for many men, and I came to this very late in my life, I never made the connection, that if I wasn’t advocating and fighting bias daily, I was actually hurting the women in my life. You know, my working mom who raised me, my, my spouse, my significant other, my sister’s, my daughter. And so when you’re a little afraid to take on, you know, that challenging situation, you got to think about why you’re doing this and why it’s important. And I find that personal connection really helps. So so I know I’ve put a lot out there.

Karan Rhodes  24:00

(Laughs) A lot of value though.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  24:06

But that being said, I have a gift for your listeners will be able to download this. It’s called “Actions for Advocates.” It’s 10 Things advocates can do. It’s built on a listen, learn lead, have the will principal. And so print this out, sign it, post it wherever you work as a commitment to the women and the other underrepresented groups of folks you work with.

Karan Rhodes  24:32

I love that and so listeners we will have a link to that in our show notes. So make sure that you can find that. So everything Jeffrey has mentioned I definitely agree with one other question, Jeffrey, before we move forward. What is your feeling about not masterminds, but accountability partners, for leaders in the workplace. So the big thing that I hear is that they sometimes feel alone. Not only is they’re fearful, and they don’t want to make a misstep, but they just want to bounce an idea or verbiage off as somebody you’re talking points off, just to make sure. How do you feel about advocacy? Oh, are accountable accountability for each other and

Jeffery Tobias Halter  25:20

Absolutely, I would be a huge proponent of that, you know, because we know the and smart leaders know this, right? They know, the higher they go in an organization, the more isolated they are. But I will tell you, the companies that have the most robust diversity at the top are the ones who have that accountability. And you know, and I’m gonna go for more of an informal definition. But it’s knowing I can walk down the hall and ask Karan, hey, you know, I’m struggling with this, can I get your perspective, and I find it being much more granular. Now, for the organization, you have to have accountable metrics. But you know, I am a huge believer in mentoring. I’m a huge believer in step level interviews, anything leaders can do to get lowered in the organization. Yeah, one of the things, we did a Coke, we had a lunch with leaders, where we would do a brown bag lunch for about 20 to 25 people. And this was through our women’s forum. And so eventually, after about eight months, we ran out of women leaders. So we had to start inviting men in to do these women form lunch with leaders. And I want to tell you, these guys were scared to death. Oh, my God, what are they going to ask me? And so I would have to brief them, right? They want to know about your career, and they want to know about the decisions you made and hope, by the way, they may ask you, you know, who has primary child responsibilities? Are you the primary point of contact for your child at school? And you know, you might get some really personal things, because these are things that are important to women that we never think about. That’s right. So I’ll leave you with one more anecdote. I use this in my keynotes if you want to shake things up in your household for your listeners here. Why don’t we change the emergency contact number to your husband or significant other for the school? So that when the call comes

Karan Rhodes  27:38

They have to t o drop everything? Yeah.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  27:39

Drop everything, right? The first thing he’s gonna say is, did you ever call my wife?

Karan Rhodes  27:46

That’s right, that’s right.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  27:49

You know, just be prepared for that. But they’ll start some dialogue around equity in the household.

Karan Rhodes  27:53

(Laughs) That’s right household. I love that. You’re so right. When I worked at Microsoft, I traveled a lot around the globe. And so my husband was on Daddy duty quite a bit. So the times when they would try me first, but if they couldn’t get me they would get him. And he probably would high five you if he was here? Definitely. Well, before I let you go, Jeffrey, um, you know, I would, I’m just curious for yourself. I mean, you’re leading your own firm and do a lot of speaking and workshops and things. You’re a leader in your own right. So what do you do to try to stay on top of your game? And lead your company?

Jeffery Tobias Halter  28:36

Oh, you know, that’s an interesting one I’ve got. I’ve got a very small group.

Karan Rhodes  28:43

But it’s still…you gotta manage it, right?

Jeffery Tobias Halter  28:45

It’s me and a couple of contractors. The biggest thing, it’s really funny because I was a people leader for years in corporate America. Once you’re a consultant, and you rely on contractors, I treat my contractors so much better than I ever treated my employees, because you realize they’re, they’re indispensable. And I have a woman who specializes in social media, I have a woman who specializes in it in customer service. And, you know, if going back if I had treated my employees, the way I treat these two, you know, I would have made a world of difference. You know, the message for today is, you need to treat all your employees just like that. You know, one of the things I talk about a lot is leading with empathy. And just we we as leaders, that the most important thing we can do is just take time to ask how are you doing? Yeah, because everyone is struggling with something. It might be aging parents. It might be mental health. It might be I didn’t get to Exercise it might be, you know, my children’s school. I don’t know whether school is going to be open or not. You know, people are struggling. And when the workplace is your kitchen table, there’s no more work at home.

Karan Rhodes  30:16

No. It’s all together (laughs).

Jeffery Tobias Halter  30:20

The biggest thing I think leaders can do is take the time I know it’s hard. You gotta take five minutes and check in with your people and just say, Can I do anything to make your life just a little easier, and your people will worship you. Because I gotta tell you, there’s a war for talent going on. And your best people are gonna be the first ones who are poached.

Karan Rhodes  30:41

There’s even a war for talent for consultants. So not only employees, but consultants as well. So you’re right on all levels is a war for talent out there? Definitely. All right. Well, once again, Jeffrey, thank you so much for coming on the Lead at the Top of Your Game Podcast. And we really appreciate your guidance and words of wisdom. So thank you so much.

Jeffery Tobias Halter  31:07

My pleasure.

Karan Rhodes  31:08

And listeners, please make sure that you definitely check out the shownotes I will have all the links that we spoke to about the day and how you can reach on Jeffery and contact his team. I bet he would love to come to speak to your teams as well to help enlighten them. And please share our podcast with a friend or two we want to really grow our subscribers. And the way we do that if is for superstars like you. So until our next episode, you have a fabulous rest of your day. Take care. Bye. I hope you enjoyed our conversation today with Jeffery Tobias Halter president of Ywomen links to his bio his entry into our leadership playbook. And additional resources can be found in the show notes, both on your favorite podcast platform of choice. And on our website, lead your game podcast.com. And now for Karen’s take on today’s topic of ally ship, you need to be an ally is not just a status symbol, but rather it’s a process of learning. Unlearning, reevaluating, and Amplifying Voices that haven’t traditionally been heard. It’s about being open to listening without judgment, and taking time to hear someone else’s experience without trying to put your own experience on top of it. To simply say that you are an ally is not enough. It is our actions that are truly meaningful. Allies can use their influence to benefit those who come from underrepresented groups, or a group that has been historically marginalized. Acts of ally ship may help people break through the barriers that they face, and ultimately make them feel more comfortable, heard, accepted and valued. And no matter how you personally identify, take some time to make a plan on how you too can be a better ally to others in the shownotes. I’ll include a few resources to get you started. And if you’re listening to today’s show, we would really appreciate that you subscribe and share our podcast with one friend. We hope that to expand our reach and you are key in doing that. Thanks so much for listening and see you next week. Bye. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast where we help you lead your seat at any employer business or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, bonus resources and also submit guests recommendations on our website at lead your game podcast.com You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K ra n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of shockingly different leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people talent development and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on demand project or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Bye for now.