Episode 39 | Leaders Don’t Have to Be Perfect To Excel with Coach MJ Tolan

Coach MJ Tolan  00:00

And I believe that if you can understand that your job as an influencer, as someone who is a shepherd, as someone who has the responsibility and the gift to be able to say, Okay, let me thank you for being here and let’s do this together and start speaking French right away. Oui oui oui oui.

Voiceover  00:28

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  01:02

Hey there superstars thanks for joining another episode designed to help you better lead at the top of your game. Well, you know, I hate to burst your bubble. But if you didn’t already know, no leader on this earth is perfect. Not one. Absolutely not one. But seriously, if you interview any leader, I bet they’ll state that they make more missteps than not. However, if they’re able to find the resiliency to keep trying to be their best. They also find that they experience more great days and challenging ones. Coach Michael, also called MJ, Tolan is our guest today, and he’s the founder of the world class Institute, and the author of two books called “Success in 47 Minutes,” and “Executive Powers.” He has such a rich story on how he, a global business executive who was very successful based on bottom line profits, dealt with the realization that he had huge blind spots in his leadership approach with his teams. So I encourage you to listen to how coach MJX dealt with his heart truths and transformed into the high performing leader that he is today. He says he has the bumps and bruises to show for it. And be sure to stay tuned for just two minutes after the episode to listen to my closing segment called Karan’s take, where I share a tip on how to use insights from today’s episode to further sharpen your leadership acumen. And now enjoy the show. Hey there superstars This is Karan and welcome to another episode of the leader the top of your game podcast. I am super thrilled that you are joining us on this episode because boy, do we have a treat for you. I am so pleased to have on today’s show Coach Michael Tolan, he’s affectionately known as Coach MJ. And he is the author of Success in 47 Minutes and the book, Executive Powers: Cracking the Code to Magnetic Leadership. And when I read about his background, how could I not have invited him to the show? Because I know they both you and I want to understand what are some of those fantastic insights that he’s gained around leadership to make leadership magnetic. He’s also a TEDx speaker. He’s a leadership advocate. And he’s an all around superstar. So welcome to the show Coach. MJ.

Coach MJ Tolan  03:33

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I don’t know about the superstar stuff. I’ll take I’ll take the blame for all the other stuff. Yes.

Karan Rhodes  03:41

Well, in full transparency, I always call my audience superstars because they are supertars in their own right in their own slivers of the world. And sometimes that’s the only time somebody will ever acknowledge you. And so I love to keep them pumped and motivated. But yes, you are a superstar. You absolutely are.

Coach MJ Tolan  03:58

I appreciate you.

Karan Rhodes  04:00

All right costumes. If so, you know, before we dive deep before as much as you feel comfortable. Would you mind sharing just a tad about your personal and professional life?

Coach MJ Tolan  04:11

Well, I say how much time do we have for this? I’d like a 30 second sound bite?

Karan Rhodes  04:15

30 seconds to a minute. Yeah.

Coach MJ Tolan  04:18

The skinny is I’m originally from South Carolina and the eldest of eight boys in the Catholic family. And I migrated to Florida, late in my late teens, got a job in sales. And that gave me kind of a catapult, a crazy career path that I got headhunted to London, and then stayed in Europe, doing business in different countries. I lived in 12 countries and started my own business and ran that for a number of years and I’ve only come back to the US about six months before COVID

Karan Rhodes  04:54

Wow, amazing. Did you come back to visit in between?

Coach MJ Tolan  04:59

I wanted to Yes, I think I came like every four or five years, but it wasn’t, it was a lot.

Karan Rhodes  05:03

Gotcha.

Coach MJ Tolan  05:05

Because I was in faraway places I lived in Russia and in Hong Kong in Lebanon and Dubai. So it wasn’t always like a little jump, a little shuttle jump to Charlotte. Big 12, 15, 18 hour flight, so.

Karan Rhodes  05:21

And so if you haven’t caught it both in kitchen, Jay and I both have seven drawers because we’re both from the south originally. And another thing we have in common, you know, in my role at Microsoft, we traveled across the world. And so I have personally visited over my lifetime over 35 countries. So while I haven’t lived in all the countries, I definitely appreciate the diversity of perspectives across the world. And I bet coach, MJ You do, too. Am I right?

Coach MJ Tolan  05:55

Oh, for sure. For sure. Absolutely.

Karan Rhodes  05:57

Wonderful. All right. Well, let’s like dive in, you know, we in the podcasts really love to like peel back the layers of the onion and really understand some true lessons. And we call them tidbits or additional plays add to our playbook, our leadership playbook. So let’s start out about talking about your book Executive Powers: Cracking the Code to Magnetic Leadership. And can you share a little bit about what made you even want to write the book?

Coach MJ Tolan  06:27

Yeah, so I never saw myself writing a book, certainly not on on leadership. Because, you know, I was the entrepreneur. I was the guy who, you know, invested the money, I worked hard for it. I, I started the companies. And by the way, I’ve probably done 12 startups in my career. Maybe four of them worked well. The other ones were practice shots. And that’s how it goes. Right? You have to get back on your horse.

Karan Rhodes  06:56

That’s right.

Coach MJ Tolan  06:57

So I probably wasn’t at times, I’m gonna say this. For any of my former employees watching this or listening to this. I, wasn’t maybe at times the Dalai Lama in the office every day? Sometimes I was grumpy, sometimes I was reacting. And, and this is the whole thing about leadership is where do you learn your leadership from and I probably learned mine from, you know, I had a grandfather who was Lieutenant Commander in the Navy, he had a fiery temper. We used to watch television shows and some of the role models that we had on TV back then if you go and watch some of those TV shows like Jackie Gleason, or Archie Bunker, and any of those, you got oh my gosh, that’s so politically incorrect. But yet, that was, you know, the, the flavor of the day.

Karan Rhodes  07:48

It was.

Coach MJ Tolan  07:49

So where do we learn our leadership from our role models and our role models can be clergy, it can be family members can be teachers, or can be the wrong kinds of role models also. So we put all that up. And then because we’re in charge of something, we think we know, and we’re the leader, because we we sign the checks. So we’re the leader, we’re the boss. Wow, boys, and I have a lot to learn that.

Karan Rhodes  08:17

And with all this, with the businesses that you’ve had, and being, you know, a significant leader in all of those, what was your biggest takeaway from all of that? What is one of the one things that you want to make sure that you always include in your speeches, or when you’re training people to make sure that they walk away with?

Coach MJ Tolan  08:38

Yeah, so it kind of comes down to this. Why would somebody want to get up in the morning and be next to you and helping you with your mission? Because it’s your mission? Right?

Karan Rhodes  08:47

Right. Right.

Coach MJ Tolan  08:48

You’re asking them to come in to leave their family to give up on their priorities, their dreams, their hobbies, their workout, whatever they wanted to do, and come in and give you the time. Why would they want to do that? I mean, certainly, it can’t be because you just offered them a job. And although some people do come because you’ve offered them a job, but you as a leader, what can you bring to the table? And I believe that if you can understand that your job as an influencer, as someone who is a shepherd, as someone who has the responsibility and the gift to be able to say okay, let me thank you for being here. And let’s do this together. And start speaking French right away. Oui, oui. Oui. Oui. Oui,

Karan Rhodes  09:40

oui, oui. I love it. So tell us a little bit more about some of the points in your book where the is it two things for them to do or is it a book about some of the stories that you’ve experienced as being a leader? Tell us more about the book. And part of that, yeah, I

Coach MJ Tolan  10:00

think, for a number of years I was writing this is after I sold my businesses, I started the World Class Institute for Leadership and Innovation. And one of the things I did is I contributed to a magazine, and I had a leadership column. And so you know, over the years, I’d write and write and, and write these leadership goals. And I basically enter the input an aggregate together and said, you know, there’s some maybe these are standalone articles, these can be chapters. So I basically assemble those, and then created this this book where of course, I, I flavored it just a little bit and tweaked it here and there.  But that’s basically what that is, is my take on leadership, that’s all I was doing for three or four years was downloading what I believe to be the best practices and leadership. So that’s what’s laced inside. And within that, you’ll find that we talked a little bit of pre-show about the leadership challenge and Jim Kouzes, which I really respected their work, and, you know, understood their entire model. And I am a firm believer that, you know, you need to have standards and principles and practices within a leadership alignment program for any organization. But apart from that, leadership doesn’t stop at the office.

Karan Rhodes  10:37

Sure.  It does not.

Coach MJ Tolan  11:21

So, you know, you know, there’s a great word, Tony Robbins used for a couple of years called congruency, you know, and if you, if you’re not congruent with what you’re talking about the office that you come home, when you start slamming up something on the wall or kicking the trashcan. No, no, no… you’re not gonna get, you’re not gonna get anybody signing up for your reelection campaign. And here’s another thing, one of the things I like to say is, if you’re in a particular role right now, and your role is leadership in any level, that means that somehow or another you’ve been selected by the either by skill or by attitude, or out of necessity to be a steward of other principles and processes and people. And with that responsibility. If the elections were held today to reelect you, would the people that you lead, vote for you?

Karan Rhodes  12:18

That’s a great question.

Coach MJ Tolan  12:19

And I think it is the core for me, because you know that the term self leadership’s been kicked around for a number of years. And what is that? Well, that’s just your grandma taught you, Hey, behave.

Karan Rhodes  12:35

That’s right. And if you ask yourself that question, and either you don’t know, or the answer truly is no. What do you suggest that people do?

Coach MJ Tolan  12:46

Well, the nice thing about it is, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever had a weight problem, but not everyone’s Oh, I have one. Now. I’m a curvy girl, I have to get into the gym. And if I don’t get into the gym, I gotta do something else. I gotta move. Right and nice thing about it is, I can make a change when I believe that a change needs to be made. And you can’t do that until you believe it can be made.

Karan Rhodes  13:13

That’s right.

Coach MJ Tolan  13:14

And leadership can also be sharpened, be taught, we learned we can take leadership, tactics, ethics, morality, from leaders of the past, they can be as far back as 1000s of years, they can be religious leaders, they can be political leaders, we can look over the last 50 years and see some of the our favorites, whether it’s Martin Luther King, or Nelson Mandela, or John F. Kennedy, or whoever we might look up to whether corporate Steve Jobs, whoever we might look up to, and see what it is that we liked about them. But if there’s a hole, there’s a hole and there always is a weakness, then why not work on that, you know, if you’re, if you’re getting, like, for example, I’ll be frank frank with your audience. My first I think, when I was 22 years old, I was appointed I was I had a huge job. And the money was just a rockstar kind of money. And the responsibility was just unbelievable. And the opportunity was phenomenal. And so there I was in the morning, I was before I got to work, I’d take mascara, Karan, and I was scared because I had little peach fuzz here from Carolina. So I put my little my little mascara on I need to want to look older than I was so that people will be afraid of me because I’m the boss

Karan Rhodes  14:37

Right! That was your mentality, right?

Coach MJ Tolan  14:42

you look back on it now it’s as a cartoon it’s probably just like a little bull terrier. Oh, want to do. I thought my idea of being the boss, you know was barking at him and you know being run around. So I didn’t have a clue about leadership at all. And the reason I’m telling this story is because I ended up being the number one customer of a local florist. Because I would constantly be told look, um, you’ve upset Sally, you know, she’s in the secretarial pool. And you went over there and told her that your job is more important than hers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she’s crying to Fred and oh, gosh, did I really and of course, I had no emotional intelligence at all. I was totally mission focused. And I thought that’s the way it should be. I’ve had some military training. So you know, that everything there was a mission mission mission nobody teaches me anything about Well, you gotta be nice to people on top of that, really?

Karan Rhodes  15:41

They left that chapter out the book, right.

Coach MJ Tolan  15:43

Yea, they left it out.

Karan Rhodes  15:45

Oh, that is amazing. And so when you reflect back on, you know, your very distinguished career. Other than that, learning that over time, but what was one other big thing that you learned that you needed to course correct to become an even more effective leader?

Coach MJ Tolan  16:04

Yeah, I think I’ve just had a recent chat with one of the most decorated military officers retired now from the Navy retired Rear Admiral and he and I were having a real Frank chat about leadership. And, and I cracked us I said, you know, I think humility is a sexiest cologne, a leader can wear today.

Karan Rhodes  16:27

Yes, yes. Say more about that.

Coach MJ Tolan  16:30

That’s for me, the essence and the juice, because I go back to the responsibility of, and the honor and the privilege of serving other people, because a leader should go to serve. And I think it happened to me one day, I got this eureka moment. And I said, you know, the coolest thing about being the CEO of this company, with all these people in it, is I get to go in and see how I can impact and influence and improve their lives, I can create learning programs for my people, I can create benefit programs for my people, I can go and give them skill sets that they don’t have that they would like to have. So once I got excited about that, well, you know, that was a that was a change moment. I mean, I was saved, but, before that, I was just a train wreck.

Karan Rhodes  17:27

Oh, no, thank you so much for sharing that. Because I think sometimes people think that, you know, leadership is easy, and leadership is just a title. And you know, as much as we tell them, you know, it’s not it’s a huge responsibility to lead and lead well, in even self leadership, you know, leading yourself or even to lead others. It takes dedication, and it’s a it’s a job within itself. And it’s where you have to continue to sharpen your skill set over a lifetime. And, you know, I’m no spring chicken anymore, but I still sharpen my tried to sharpen my skill sets every day. And I’m, I’m wondering, what does it take for you now at this stage , now that you’re running your, your own firm, what does it take for you to lead at the top of your game right now.

Coach MJ Tolan  18:20

So again, it comes back to understanding what value you can bring to others. And there’s no, there’s no badge of authority, desired or needed,

Karan Rhodes  18:35

Right.

Coach MJ Tolan  18:36

What there is, is the opportunity to serve, there’s nothing more if you have the opportunity to serve, which I am privileged to get from time to time, that’s when you can, that’s when you can use the experience that you have to lift others. And that’s totally it. I mean, if we were, if we were engineers on the Wright Brothers aircraft, the first one that got out our job would be to be the ones to blow the wings up right into the air.

Karan Rhodes  19:12

Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, one of the things that you were so kind of share with me, in our pre meeting, we were talking about some of the leadership tactics in my book, and I asked which one of those really stood out for you. And you mentioned the one about leading with executive presence. And the way we define it, or I defined it in the book is all about the ability to have or deliver clear and convincing presentations of your perspectives and hopes to influencing others. So it’s, it is the typical definition of executive presence, but it’s taking it to the next level when you’re a leader in putting together your thoughts, your ideas, your perspectives, and a nice type of package and delivering it in a way to better influence others. So I’m just curious for you, what does executive presence, why does that stand out for you as an important skill set for leader

Coach MJ Tolan  20:13

Because it is your brand, and you walk into a door, people are going to judge you from head to toe, in 1.2 seconds or less

Karan Rhodes  20:25

or less.

Coach MJ Tolan  20:26

And your, your body language is going to be incorporated into their calculus as well. And how you how you speak, how you convince yourself, and the words that you use that you’re sure of what you’re saying. And they can feel that. So it has a lot to do with residents. And, and when when your vibration is aligned with what your mission is. And again, going back to who you serve and how you serve. There’s no question that you don’t need a business card, you don’t need a brochure, they can feel it, they can get it

Karan Rhodes  21:06

They’ll know it instantly, right. So Coach MJ, I want you to enter you know, because you’ve had such like, it’s it is such a diverse set of experiences from all over the globe, I want you to think about a leader that you admire. And the leader can be a person, it can be a business, it can be a brand, it can be any entity that has kind of differentiated themselves. In your mind. This is the one that pops to mind for you.

Coach MJ Tolan  21:40

Well, you know, you’re asking me a question. I mean, I of course, I looked into the great the lives of some of the great people who’ve lived

Karan Rhodes  21:48

Sure. Just one…

Coach MJ Tolan  21:49

In my lifetime, I have to say that a leader who I admire, probably more than anyone is Nelson Mandela.

Karan Rhodes  21:56

Tell me why.

Coach MJ Tolan  21:57

He’s at the top of my list.

Karan Rhodes  21:58

And what differentiates him in your mind. Why was he such an effective leader?

Coach MJ Tolan  22:04

He didn’t have anything to prove. He didn’t have an agenda. He wasn’t trying to impress anybody. He wasn’t telling anybody what kind of car he just bought. He wasn’t telling him. I just moved into this neighborhood. It was It wasn’t trying to show him is shiny business card. It’s just a caring, humble person who knew exactly what he needed to do. And he knew how to forgive all of the past so that he could get on with making things happen today.

Karan Rhodes  22:37

He sure did. You summed it up and less than a minute perfectly. And what I always love to say thank you for sharing that because I was very thoughtful and very revealing. I always say that it for any leader that has, to your point, differentiated themselves in someone’s mind. Either the research shows that at some point, they have excelled in one or more of these tactics. Now there’s an argument sake, I think Nelson Mandela excelled on them all. But what I am particularly impressed with is his ability to lead with what we call stakeholder savvy. He was really able to talk to connect with understand the perspectives of so many people who had so many different viewpoints, but was still able to pull them together in order to get things done. You know, he had to deal with those who wanted apartheid, it to deal with those who are fighting apartheid. It says he as he was and you know, the list goes on and on. But But you’re so right. He had such a strong not only had a strong executive presence, but his stakeholder savvy, in my opinion was off the charts with how he handled that. And that was just Karan’s reflection. That if you agree, you poke holes of that, feel free to

Coach MJ Tolan  24:05

100% 100% using the words like let’s Yes, works. Inclusion. Hello

Karan Rhodes  24:11

Inclusion. Yes, yes, he was the king of that. Well, we I know we only have a few more minutes left with the coach MJ, but I want to leave the rest of the time to really dig deep of what you’d like our listeners to do to follow you. I know you have a you do a lot of speaking work. You do a lot of training and development. How would you be most impactful for our listeners, and where can they find more information about your offerings?

Coach MJ Tolan  24:41

Well, so thank you Karan, for that this is the time where I get to do my plug right so

Karan Rhodes  24:45

You do! Plug away!

Coach MJ Tolan  24:49

I can be reached at my website which is Coach MJ Tolan to La en.com I was introduced by Karan and the beginning topic show and she introduced me as Michael which is my offstage name. But Michael is that my birth name and my family name is Tolan. So I used to be able to say and all these other countries that I lived in, that everybody has a calling in life, and that my calling is to land I’ve lived in many lands, so Michael Toland. So that’s how I used to help people remember my name. So hit my website, hit me up on LinkedIn, follow me on the same coach MJ Tolan and I’ll, I’ll be happy to connect with anybody out there who wants to share anything. Also, I have a podcast, which podcast is about adversity. So I have guests who come on who overcome incredible adversity and fire, myself and others as we get through life, because there’s not a day goes by that something doesn’t happen. And you go, Oh, shucks, I wish but you know what, there’s always somebody going through a heck of a lot more than we are. And so I hope that our show, the real mission I’m possible is the name of the show. I hope it will inspire others also. So I’d love to have you check it out, check it out and see if you like it, and maybe you’ll subscribe.

Karan Rhodes  26:14

Absolutely. Of course, we’ll have all the links to his website, his links to the podcast and everything in the show notes, listeners, so be sure you check those as well. And while you’re subscribing to mine, you’re already there. You might as well ascribe to I’m possible to with because MJ because it is very inspirational, I did have a chance to check it out before the show. And, you know, for those who know me, I’m very emotional. And so I love a great, you know, hardship story where people persevere. And so I get teary eyed, but then I’m cheering at the end, because he has some very enriching and uplifting stories. So please do check out his podcasts as well. And then lastly, the last question for you, coach him, Jay is, you know, one of the things people face a lot when they’re leaders. While they’re uplifted in the process of leading, it can be very challenging and exhausting, too. And I try to be very transparent with listeners on how to, you know, remain resilient and know that there are days that it’s going to be challenging, there’s some days you’re not going to want to get up. And then there’s some days you’re going to be in your zone and leaning. Do you have any thoughts by chance of or guidance or a tip of what people should do? When leadership is not going? Like they want to on that particular day? Is there anything that they should do they kind of reset, recalibrate and go or just do that reset? recalibrate?

Coach MJ Tolan  27:53

That’s good advice. It’s the loneliest job, you know, the adage is it’s lonely at the top of crowded at the bottom. So if you’re the leader, wherever you are, in the leadership, pecking order, if there is such a thing, I understand that it’s it’s lonely, and some days, you’ll, you’ll go home, got it, because either you were misunderstood, or you wanted to do more, or whatever reasons that you are self reflecting. But self reflection is good. And, you know, we have to be a basketball, this is what I want to give you today, I want you to just imagine a basketball without any air. And that’s how sometimes we come home. I got like a flat tire. We’ve got to use, we got to use the tools. And listen, this is not ooby jooby stuff, it’s really a good thing, views the tools of mindfulness, of silent meditation of reading something inspirational, even if it’s for 15 minutes a day. Just clear your head, just reset it so that you can blow enthusiasm back into your basketball because brothers and sisters, ladies and gentlemen, you gotta bounce and basketball is not going to bounce unless it’s got air in it, and it needs your enthusiasm to bounce

Karan Rhodes  29:16

Oh, and a fantastic analogy that is just absolutely amazing. And we probably have just one minute left, but I cannot get you out of here because you and Jay without at least ask them the question about your second book, which is called Success in 47 Minutes. And now you can’t explain everything. But you got to give us lots of an overview of what that book is about so that people can you know, look at that book as well. Executive Power.

Coach MJ Tolan  29:42

Yeah. So I was challenged to do a TEDx and I finally got accepted onto a TEDx stage in Dubai. And I didn’t think anything of it. I mean, at the time, I was doing lots of other speaking gigs. This didn’t pay so I wasn’t too concerned. I mean, frankly, okay, yeah, a friend of mine saw it a few years later and goes, gosh, you should make that into a book as a Come on. Now listen, he’s the kind of friend who can camp out on your kitchen table. He comes for a visit, and he can look at you and go, I’m serious, dude. And so I did. I wrote, I wrote basically, the synopsis of that talk or the guts of that talk into that book. And basically, what it is, is just a, a mind hack on how to, in a humorous way, how to get back on track by using some of the tools that some we talked about today. Others are in the book. So when, how to how to how to be successful in 47 minutes, because I figured it would take them about 47 minutes to read the book.

Karan Rhodes  30:49

I love it. I absolutely love it. Well listen to this, you might as well pick that baton up to as you go and get executive powers. Because you know, I think we all can take a lesson about how to be successful in 47 minutes, so awesome. Well, thank you so much kitchen J for being a guest on today’s episode. I was sitting here taking notes as we were talking and quite a few tidbits that I know our listeners have enjoyed picking up

Coach MJ Tolan  31:18

Thank you.

Karan Rhodes  31:19

Awesome. All right, listeners. Thank you once again for listening to another episode. Please remember to subscribe. And also I only ask that to share with one additional friend because I’m sure there’s a tidbit or tip that will help them as well. I hope you have a fantastic rest of your week and see you next week. Take care. Well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today with coach Michael MJ Tolan links to his bio is entered into our leadership playbook, and additional resources can be found in the show notes, both on your favorite podcast platform of choice, and on the web at leadyourgamepodcast.com. And now for Karan’s take on today’s topic of imperfect leadership. You know, traditional leadership models tend to portray leaders as being all things all people however, the tides are changing in today’s world. And so it’s a portrait of what a true leader really is. Leaning in these times of globalization, complexity and ambiguity demands new wide range capabilities and skills. And while we always may have imperfect tendencies, here’s some tips that will reduce the impact of the times when you find yourself not operating at your best one. Understand what drives your behaviors and actions. To become aware of your own needs first, so you can notice the needs of others. Three, escape conformity to lead with your values and what you believe in. Four, allow yourself to be vulnerable. It’s okay people are naturally drawn to those who are vulnerable. Five, acknowledge your both your strengths and your weaknesses. And six find the courage to rely on others to compensate for any many missing skills that you may have. Now, if you or your team is interested in learning more about effective leadership and action, and how to turn your skills into differentiators, check out our signature Lead at the Top of Your Game Assessment and workshops on the website at developingyourgame.com. And please remember to subscribe to the podcast and share with just one friend. Because doing this will allow us to extend our reach and help others just like you to lead at the top of their game. Thanks so much for listening and see you next week. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.