Episode 71 | Using Hybrid Book Publishing to Catapult Your Leadership Brand with Tanya Hall

Tanya Hall  00:00

So in the hybrid model that we have, our authors are investing in the production of the books that in exchange for that they are holding on to those intellectual property rights. They own the books themselves, and they have more ability to then repurpose that content into other things like online learning modules, or workshops, or whatever they do to monetize their big ideas.

Karan Rhodes  00:25

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes. Welcome back, everyone, and thanks for joining another episode designed to help you better lead at the top of your game. Now, as you know for season three each month we’re featuring leaders who have interesting roles in a particular profession or industry. Today’s episode is part of our special series featuring leaders navigating in the digital world. And on today’s show, we’re featuring an expert who helps authors use the advances in digital publishing to help them become thought leaders in their niche. We’re proud to have Tanya Hall, who is the CEO of Greenleaf Book Group, one of the fastest growing and hybrid book publishing and distribution firms in the country. Now as an author myself, I was fascinated by Tany’s advice on how to best navigate some of the biggest misconceptions around birth in a book. And if I’m honest, I made a few of these mistakes myself that were on her list. But I’ll definitely not make the same mistakes twice as I work on number two. So if writing a book in the next few years is on your to do list, you will definitely not want to miss this episode. And also remember to stay tuned for just two minutes after the episode to listen to my closing segment called Karan’s Take, where I share a tip on how to use insights from today’s episode to further sharpen your leadership acumen. And now, enjoy the show. Hey there superstars! Welcome to another episode of the Lead at the Top of Your Game podcast. We are so pleased to have on today’s show. Miss Tanya Hall, CEO of the Greenleaf Book Group. And the Greenleaf Book Group is a hybrid book publishing firm that helps authors develop publishing strategies. And if they engage with Greenleaf to leverage some of great lease great relationships that they have developed, working directly with retailers and wholesalers to develop one of the fastest growing distribution businesses in the industry. Their whole concept is so wonderful. And because many of you as leaders have either written a book or have dreams of writing a book, we thought, Wow, what a great resources to bring on to the podcast to give you a sneak peek into what it all entails or how to take your next book if you’ve already written one to the next level. So welcome to the podcast, Tanya.

Tanya Hall  03:26

Thank you. I’m pleased to be here.

Karan Rhodes  03:28

Oh, we’re so honored to have you. And I have my notepad ready because I know me personally even though I’ve written a book, I am not a be all pro of it all though I’m sure there’s a lot that I don’t know that you’re going to be able to share insights with. But before we get started, if you don’t mind, we love to share just a little thing a little bit about you personally with our audience. So just as much as you feel comfortable. Can you give us a sneak peek into a bit of your personal life and passions?

Tanya Hall  03:58

Sure. I grew up in Southern California but I’ve lived in the Austin area for the last 20 some odd years. I have two daughters who are well one just graduated college so I’m very proud of her University of Oregon is my dad math major at the University of Oregon. And then my younger one is a sophomore at the Laguna College of Art and Design so obviously my girls are very important to me. And I since the girls have gone off to college, I have filled my house with dogs. I have three St. Bernard’s, a German Shepherd, and a lab. A whole lot of dog hair in tumbleweeds across my floor at any given time.

Karan Rhodes  04:42

Okay, I just need to high five you on that one because although we only have one currently I’ve had a St. Bernard and a German Shepherd in the heat of Georgia right so they shed a lot so we had clumps of hair everywhere. And now we just have a papillon on named Poppy. He’s a friend who are our audience listeners, because sometimes he does bark from underneath my desk, but he’s a small dog. But we’ve historically had larger ones. So I totally get what you’re going through.

Tanya Hall  05:16

I love them. I love my St. Bernard’s, too. They’re

Karan Rhodes  05:19

just so wonderful and lovable. They really are. Yeah. All right, well, let’s dive right in. And what I would love for you to start with Tanya is just to explain to our listeners a little bit about what Greenleaf book group does, and what is the difference between hybrid and regular publishing?

Tanya Hall  05:43

Sure. So we are a publisher and a distributor. And that means that people come to us at all different stages. Sometimes, I like to say people just have a sparkle in their eye, they know they want to write a book, they don’t have any idea how to get started, in which case, we can come alongside and partner with them all the way through the entire process. And then other times people have a finished book, and they may maybe have tried to get some distribution themselves, they’ve hit a wall because of reasons we can get into if you want to. But it’s really hard as independent authors or a self published author to get retail distribution. So then they bring the book to us, can you help us get it into Barnes and Noble and the airport stores and so forth. And if it’s a fit for our sales channels, and it’s a good quality book, then we can just bring in as a distribution project. So most people are somewhere in the middle, they have a manuscript maybe, and they’re considering their different publishing options. Now, the hybrid model, as the name infers, it’s a blend in between self publishing, and traditional publishing. So on the self publishing side, you would, of course, be investing in the production of your book, you’re like the general contractor, and you have control, right, you’re in the driver’s seat, and you’re putting all the money into it. So you get all the money on the back end, as well, in a traditional publishing deal for your business listeners, that’s more like venture capital. So they’re putting money into it. But that means, of course, they’re going to keep the lion’s share on the back end, too, because they’re shouldering the risk. So you give up a little bit of creative control, and you give up ownership of your intellectual property rights. So in the hybrid model that we have, our authors are investing in the production of the books that in exchange for that they are holding on to those intellectual property rights, they own the books themselves. And they have more ability to then repurpose that content into other things like online learning modules, or workshops, or whatever they do to monetize their big ideas. So it works really well for people who are speakers consultants, or have a significant direct sales platform, as we say,

Karan Rhodes  07:45

Got ya. And is one going down one pathway, more cost intensive for the author than another? And if so, why or why not?

Tanya Hall  07:57

It depends, I guess, on how you look at it. So in a traditional deal, you won’t have to, you’ll get an advance typically, or in some cases, you don’t get an advance, but at least you’re not paying anything for the production of the books. But then you don’t own the book. So if you like a speaker, where you want to give a copy to everyone in the audience, you have to buy them back from your publisher. And overtime, you know, what would that cost? I don’t know if it depends on the deal that you make and how much people get and how people you want to give it to. Right. So it’s kind of hard to say, in the hybrid model and our business model, it’s definitely more expensive than probably self publishing, just because it’s a bigger push, we have to print printing is expensive, we have to print more books to get them out amongst the retail brick and mortar chains. And then there’s usually a significant marketing push. So the book is usually supporting a brand or a business, in addition to just the book sales themselves. And that’s really, people call it a business card. I kind of hate that, because it seems to sort of belittle what all the hard work. Book involves. But but it is, it is it’s something that is out there in the world, kind of extending your credibility and your visibility.

Karan Rhodes  09:07

Fascinating. How has mobile readers like your Kindles, and you know, there’s tons of apps where you can read books, how has that impacted the hybrid publishing industry?

Tanya Hall  09:21

So that all kind of took off around 2008? Between 2008 and 2010, there was sort of the the War of the readers, let’s say that the Barnes and Noble add their new book and Amazon with the Kindle and the iPad comes along, and that’s in the mail, as well. So there’s because I’ve worked in television before I worked in book publishing, and oh, it’s really struck me about the media industry is people are so quick to want parts of it to die, right. When television comes out, oh, the movies are dead, and then when cable out all of its dead, and in fact, none of its dead. So it’s just another format and that was the case. With ebooks as well, so they initially were plenty of reports about the skyrocketing growth? Well, it’s because the numbers were small. So it’s increasing 200% year over year. But that’s because it’s like a tiny, very little compared to what print books are selling. So to answer your question more quantitatively, it’s really leveled out, it did its growth spurt. And then in the past few years, it’s actually taken a dip back down, pandemic notwithstanding, but it’s about 10%. Right now, digital eBooks are about 10% of the overall book sales market, the exception of romance, that’s a much higher percentage, because those are voracious readers.

Karan Rhodes  10:41

Yes, I can imagine. But, you know, do you bring up a great point because I used to, I’m a voracious reader, myself, and not a romance novels, but just in general. And I was back in the day, I was reading how they said, Oh, you know, the millennials and the Gen Zers, you know, are going to really only want, you know, online access to books. And that’s so not true. Now. I’m old school because I’m older. And I love to have a physical book me personally. But then my daughter, who is Agenzia, she loves physical books as well. There’s some things she liked, you know, she’ll tap on online, but very few. She loves to have the physical book. So I can understand why there’s not such a or there’s a misconception about the market share.

Tanya Hall  11:26

Yeah, and I think with nonfiction books, and business books, in particular, people like to have them as sort of a display of what they believe in or what they’ve learned or right. It’s, it’s almost like bragging rights. So it’s on your bookshelf, you’ve got your sort of mind. Yeah, I think there’s a couple of factors at play there. And also, it’s still stupidly difficult to gift ebooks. So often, like if a corporation is buying bulk quantities of books, physical is just much easier.

Karan Rhodes  11:59

I…yeah, it’s definitely is much easier to get to get the physical book than, you know, in the book. And I was going to share one thing about that, and I forgot, but okay, well, let me move on, since I can’t remember really, really quick. So can you give us a little insight into the process? If someone wants to work with a firm like yours? Uh, how should they prepare? What should they think about? What is the right way to prepare to get started, so that they’re not behind the eight ball once they get to you. Any tips on that?

Tanya Hall  12:32

I would say yes, I would say reach out as early in the process as possible. You know, very often I see people who really want to polish it before they turn it over for someone else to be the judge of right when and that’s understandable. But the problem is that they spend so much time on it at that point, and they’ve been working in a vacuum, that then they get it to us. And we kind of this isn’t happening all the time. But we look at it and say like, well, we’ve got to take a step back because something’s not working. And now we have to rewrite a part of it, or rearrange it or do some other type of heavy lifting. That could have been avoided if we had in the beginning, let’s say taking a look at their outline to say, this flow mostly makes sense. , but let’s rearrange this part and this part, you’re missing something here, there’s too much here. So it’s just more efficient, if we can vote early and help guide the how the manuscript is, is being born, if you will. And in terms of actually working with Greenleaf, if people go to our website, Greenleafbookgroup.com, there’s a form there that they can fill out. And you know, we’re just wanting to understand people’s goals, and what kind of efforts they’re going to put behind promoting it. And that’s a huge part of the book success, as you know. And then we’re looking for great content and collaborative authors due to the nature of the business model, and someone who understands that they really got to get out there and hustle to help the book sell.

Karan Rhodes  13:59

So for those individuals, like myself, who’ve already written a book, but they might want a boost in distribution information. What does that piece look like?

Tanya Hall  14:09

Well, it depends on what your deal is like. So if you have a deal where your distribution rights are tied up exclusively with someone else, there’s not a whole lot that we can do in terms of distribution, we might be able to do a couple of things on the marketing side, that as long as they don’t require us to be the vendor of records. So it gets a little tricky. for people who, say, have maybe the book is has been self published. And like I described earlier, they’ve just kind of hit a wall. And they’re wondering, how do I further extend it into retail? That’s often where we can come in and start a new push for the book and work with the author to develop sort of a second launch, if you will.

Karan Rhodes  14:48

Yeah.. And what does that entail? I’m always trying to prepare our audience members for, you know, because it’s going to be work you know, so dedicating the time and attention and resources needed to be successful, because that’s what they want their, you know, but to be. So what would that entail to? I guess get information out there? And what time commitment would they need to make? Is it to be interviewed? Is it to just be on call to support you, as you will put it out to your distribution network? I mean, what does that look like?

Tanya Hall  15:21

I will say the more it’s kind of up to the author, and the more involved they are, the better the results. And it can get frustrating because they all have jobs and their kids and in life, right. So at some point, it’s really starts to sort of wear you out. So I always tell authors, like pick the thing that you love to do, whether that’s if you want more articles out there that point back to your book and leave a digital footprint, as we like to say online do that, if you love doing these podcasts, interviews, do those. I think people get into trouble when they try to do a little bit of all of it. And it just wears you out too. But

Karan Rhodes  15:59

Then you don’t do anything Well, right? Because you’re not focused on

Tanya Hall  16:03

Yeah, and you just you start to kind of resent the whole process. And then you’re not going to have a good product, because can come through, I would say yeah, just figure out the thing that you really like to do. And if there’s other stuff that needs to be done, that’s when you potentially can bring in a team to take care of those pieces for you. So you’re not missing opportunities

Karan Rhodes  16:24

I love that. And other than royalties that you get from book sales, what other revenue type of possibilities are there out there for authors.

Tanya Hall  16:33

So I wrote a book called ideas, influence and income. And that’s those are the three sections of the book and the income section is everybody’s favorite.

Karan Rhodes  16:42

I wonder why.

Tanya Hall  16:44

It’s deep into all of those things. So most common you see, speaking, a lot of our authors are people who either are speakers or they are aspiring to be professional speakers, and a book is almost a necessity. In that case, it’s really a legitimize her. And it’s a good thing to have, basically, for many reasons, as a speaker, online learning modules, there’s lots of really cool platforms online now where you can sort of have a white label service in the background and have a really nicely designed online learning series that’s pulled from the content in your book, if you have the rights to do that. Some of my authors who are in let’s say, like sales training, or other types of professional training, have a train the trainer, sort of business model where they’ve almost like franchising your framework or your thought leadership. And that doesn’t lend itself to all types of content. But you know, if you think about sales training, that makes a lot of sense, and they just get somebody indoctrinated in whatever their program is, and send them out so that they can scale this type of business that they have. So there’s there are many more, and I will point you to my book, if you want to learn more about them. And I went to great lengths to make that section very actionable.

Karan Rhodes  18:00

That’s fantastic. And well, listeners, we will definitely have links to Tanya’s book, as well as a ton of other resources for you in the show notes, but definitely prioritize getting her book because she’s been in this industry, she’s felt so compelled to write a book about it. So it’d be silly, if you’re interested in this area, right in a book or looking to increase your distribution and revenue, not to go and seek out an expert’s advice on you know, how to do it and how to go about it. So definitely do so. So, Tony, I’d like for you to tell us a little bit more about the Greenleaf growth, because I’m you all have been in this industry for quite some time, I think over 20 years if I’m correct, if I’m not mistaken?

Tanya Hall  18:48

26

Karan Rhodes  18:49

Oh my goodness, 26, which is huge for businesses to have that type of survivability. So can you you know, share a bit about your, you know, the company’s journey. And then what do you see on the horizon right now? For Greenleaf?

Tanya Hall  19:05

Sure. Yeah, it’s been fascinating. Honestly, I’ve been there for 20 of the 26 years. And when I started, it was very much a startup. And I was on the distribution side of the business because we were just a distributor Not that that’s any small thing, but we were a distributor. And that meant that all we were doing was taking people’s finished books and selling them. So it wasn’t until a few years after I started that the light bulb went off and we were like, Why don’t we keep rejecting books and telling people your book covers no good go over here. If you need editorial help go over there and then resubmit it. You know, people hate that, of course, but we’re the ones selling into retail. So we are best equipped to close that loop like we know what they want. And we’re not closing that loop for them. We’re missing an opportunity. So that’s when the the publishing side of the business really took off when we brought in experts to take care of all of those different needs editorial design and marketing. So that It’s really the business model is more like a distributor with publishing services. And that’s the evolution of it. So that part of the business just took off exponentially year over year as people wanted to work with a partner who had direct inroads with the types of bookstore chains and airports where they want their books to be seen, of course. And then over time, you know, part of growing the company, which I’ve always been heavily involved with, has been keeping an ear to the ground, not only with the industry and seeing things like, oh, there’s a new print on demand technology that actually supports imprint in our business or ebooks, let’s say like, some of it kind of gets forced upon you, right? Where you Okay, yeah, we have to do that now. But also listening to our authors and hearing them say, Gee, I wish you guys did this, so that it was all under one roof. I wish you did that. And that’s how, for instance, one part of our business is basically an in house branding agency, because we had authors say, you’re telling me I should identify my audience succinctly to the point where I have personas for them and better differentiate my book. But that’s branding stuff. And who does that so we figured out how to do it. And now we have branding people internally. So people, they appreciate that they want the one stop shop. And that’s what we’re always trying to deliver to them. And then the other thing that’s been really key for our growth are significant partnerships. So we have, for instance, the license to run the publishing imprint for Fast Company Magazine, that’s called Fast Company press. And we have the same thing for Ink Magazine. And that’s called an ink original. So they’re Yeah, they’re really powerful brands that we can bring to our authors. And then in turn, they get advertising support from those magazines. So obviously, you know, it’s such an honor to be affiliated with them.

Karan Rhodes  21:56

Wow, that’s playing with the big boys. Congratulations on Greenleaf growth. That is amazing. And I’m just curious, what is your thoughts or positions on audio books? Should authors think about recording a version of their book? Or is that not as popular right now?

Tanya Hall  22:13

Audiobooks are the darling of our industry, because the publishing industry people, like I said earlier, like to doomsday it, but it’s super stable, and it always has been audiobooks are the rising star, because there’s exponential growth there year over year, double digit growth. So more and more people are listening in their cars, or have smart speakers in the home. It’s just very easy nowadays to listen to an audio book, and some people prefer it over reading, which is fine, who cares? As long as they’re consuming the content? Right?

Karan Rhodes  22:44

Right.

Tanya Hall  22:44

So the challenge that the industry has always had is that audiobooks are not inexpensive to produce, well, I would highly recommend having a voice actor or professional narrator and then you can have to have it edited and mastered and so forth. So that being said, the the return can be challenging, because Audible is it’s an Amazon brand and are the market leader and just their the way they pay out college percentage. Yeah, we call it digital dimes. So same time, you know, if we’re going back to this book, really being intended to extend your visibility and credibility and raise awareness of how you think or your company, then you’d be silly not to because you’re reaching an entirely new community of people who are consuming this type of content.

Karan Rhodes  23:36

And if they really enjoy your book, I’m, you know that I’m sure they’re going to Google you or search you or get to your website where you might have many other more lucrative offerings that they might take advantage of, or have their teams take advantage of your company. So I can definitely see that connection. What is one of the largest misconceptions about book publishing or, or hybrid publishing either one, anything in the publishing industry was one of the biggest misconceptions by the general public out there.

Tanya Hall  24:08

I think one misconception or at least one underestimation is how hard it is to get the book out there into the world, the the competition, every year increases in the media space. And in all of media, we have the same challenge. We have an oversupply of content and an under demand because we’re all competing for eyeballs as we say. So I think authors can fall into this trap of what I call magical thinking where you do the very hard work and it is hard work of writing the book. And when you finish just to sort of sit back and think okay, the universe rewards hard things. I just did this like really hard thing. So now, Universe, you do your thing.

Karan Rhodes  24:52

It doesn’t work like that, right?

Tanya Hall  24:55

In fact, I’m sorry to say that the hard work is still ahead of you because more bucketing, it is just you have to really be persistent and keep at it and have a lot of different avenues that you’re using to try and reach these readers. So it’s just because there’s so much competition, there’s 1000s of books being published every day, and then pile on to that, you know, blogs and streaming TV and radio and everything else that you know, people have a choice to use their time on. So you really got to make the book special, and then you’ve got to work to get it out there.

Karan Rhodes  25:32

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Does Greenlee support authors just in the US or globally?

Tanya Hall  25:40

Globally, and we have a growing number of international authors, we tend to prefer if they have some sort of connection to the states, even if that just means that they come here to work with certain clients, so that for promotional reasons, so that they can actually take advantage of opportunities to get you know, interviews, or whatever, while they’re here in the States. But yeah, we do have a growing number of of people who come to us, specifically because they want to extend their footprint into the United States. And that book is a tool to do that.

Karan Rhodes  26:07

And it’s awesome. Well, hey, our listeners come from all over the globe. So that is a great to know, just because you’re not in the United States. Everyone, you can definitely take advantage of Greenleaf services.

Tanya Hall  26:21

That’s right.

Karan Rhodes  26:22

Well, Tanya, you know that I wrote a book on leadership execution and what I like to call leadership and action for individuals. And it was based on a ton of research that we did on high performing leaders. And we’d love to always ask our guests, which of the seven tactics that we talked about, really resonated for them, and you were so kind enough to share that leading with intrapreneurship jumped out for you. And for our newer listeners, if you’re not aware, leading with intrapreneurship is all about finding ways to improve products, processes or services, you know, based on your work environment, but finding ways to always improve them for the better. And so we’re just curious, Tanya, why did leading with intrapreneurship really resonate for you?

Tanya Hall  27:13

I think intrapreneurship was the one that jumped out at me, because that’s what I’ve done right? Throughout my time at Greenleaf, I’ve always been building new products or services or departments and divisions. And that’s really how the company has grown. And what led me to my position of leadership, because eventually after you’ve been involved with all of those things, you know, the most about the company? Yeah, I think it’s something that’s important for leaders to actually sort of formalize a program around, I think it’s one thing to say we support that, but then to actually have a vehicle by which people can bring forward those ideas and improvements and thoughts on how to grow the business is very empowering.

Karan Rhodes  27:55

It sure is. It sure is. And I’m just curious, Tanya, um, what does it take for you to lead at the top of your game, because I know being a CEOs of such a dynamic firm, can be challenging, but also rewarding. So how do you stay on top of your game?

Tanya Hall  28:13

Two things. Number one, my work has purpose baked in. Right? It’s, I feel sort of bad for people. Like if you’re running a server farm, and you’re trying to connect purpose with your team, I could hire because I’m good at that kind of thing. But with bringing people’s ideas into the world, it’s easy. It’s obvious what and I have so many wonderful people on my staff who are very passionate about supporting that. So that’s a huge part of it. And I guess kind of in the same in the same thought. My team, my team is, I’ve learned over the years, can make or break me as a CEO and my performance. So I’ve, you know, really, I think honed my skills and hiring and also dealing with certain there’s always people issues and every company. Yeah, I think getting that right is definitely key to leading at the top of your game.

Karan Rhodes  29:08

Oh, and I wanted to do a virtual high five with you on that one as well. Because I know that I’m leading the firm of my own. Having fantastic team members who bring strengths to the table that you may not even have yourself is imperative. Just having great talent, you know that our passion is is very imperative to the organization’s success. So definitely understand. Well, before we let you sneak out of here Miss Taya, I love we’re going to have as I mentioned all the links to website information, your books, tons of resources for audience listeners, but I love to give our guests an opportunity to give voice behind where to find them. So if you wouldn’t mind sharing, where the listeners can find you and what Greenleaf is up to

Tanya Hall  29:57

Sure, so the Greenleaf website is WWW.Greenleafbookgroup.com. And then there is a website for my book, which is www.ideasinfluenceandincome.com. And there are some resources there that are very valuable. And also, on the Greenleaf website, if people are thinking about writing a book, or maybe like in your situation, they’ve written it, and they’re wondering what they can do to sort of re jumpstart it. We have a learning center that we’ve been building for years. So there’s so much good stuff in there. So if you have any questions about the industry, or how to get started, the answer is certainly in the Learning Center on the Greenleaf website.

Karan Rhodes  30:32

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much time you for the gift of your time and you sharing these valuable tips with our audience members. It’s been a pleasure having you on the podcast.

Tanya Hall  30:47

It’s been a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Karan Rhodes  30:49

Awesome. And thank you to listeners for the gift of your time and attention and listening to this episode. As you all know, we only ask one thing from you, it’s to like and subscribe to the podcast and just share with one friend, because by doing so that helps to expand our reach, and help us to help others to lead at the top of their game. Thanks so much and see you next week. I hope you enjoyed our conversation today with Tonya Hall, CEO of Greenleaf Book Group. Links to her bio, her entry into our leadership playbook and additional resources can be found in the show notes, both on your favorite podcast platform of choice and on the web at leisure game podcast.com. And now for Karan’s Take on today’s topic of digital book publishing, private publishing can be a great option, no matter if you’re writing book number one, or button number five in your repertoire. Well, when you use hybrid publishing, you do carry much of the cost and financial risk. You also have an army of experts to professionalize marketing, distribute your book. And this is critical in order to quickly expand your reach outside of your own private network, and is definitely going to be helpful if you want to get your book in the hands of your target audience as quickly as possible. You know, it’s like hiring a contractor when you want to build a new house on a plot of land, you pay the contractor to oversee the design, construction, plumbing and electricity and so on. Because they have the context and the expertise that you lack or you don’t have the bandwidth to acquire the when it’s done, you own a beautiful home. And while the contractor produced it, and you paid him a fee him or her fee, they don’t own it, you do. Now the chief advantage of the hybrid publishing model for those who choose it seems to be control, because you have control over the timing, the rights, the outcome and the product itself. And the chief barrier seems to be funny, because it’s not cheap, I’m going to be honest with you. And then if we’re talking pros and cons, a second con might involve the dream of being traditionally published by a major publishing house and the fear that you will be considered a real author. But you know, here’s the truth. If it’s a good book, which it probably is, if you’re you’re writing it and you do your research, and you’re thinking about it appropriately, if it’s a good book, which is professionally produced, readers really don’t care what imprint is on the spine, very few of them do. I even saw a recent survey of over 750 people that were asked what makes readers given unknown author a chance. And you know what, the word publisher was never mentioned that once. So Karen’s advice is to just focus on getting it professionally produced, and know that not all presses that call themselves hybrid are equally professional with equal tracker. So do your research. And I do encourage you to put Tanya on your shortlist because, believe me, she knows her stuff, and she has a ton of contacts. If Greenleaf is ideal for you, so she could probably point you in the right direction. Well, that’s all for today. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast and share the podcast with just one friend because by doing so you will empower them to also lead at the top of their game. Thanks again for listening and see you next week. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.