Episode 78 | Kill the One-n-Done Training Mindset with Joe Dunlap

Joe Dunlap 

I think the underlying problem is that a lot of leaders are looking for a very quick fix without really understanding the human dynamic of which they’re dealing, you know, and understanding the motivations, the behaviors, the personalities of the individuals that make up their workforce

Voiceover 

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes 

Hello, everyone, welcome back to the podcast. And thanks for joining another episode designed to help you better lead at the top of your game. That as you know, for season three, each month, we’re featuring leaders who have fascinating roles in a particular profession or industry. And today’s episode is part of our special series featuring leaders who focus on an aspect of professional development. And now enjoy the show. Hey, they’re superstars. This is Karan and welcome to another episode of the Lead at the Top of Your Game podcast. We are so pleased to have on today’s show just a giant if you will, and his own industry in the learning and development space. And we’re honored to have Joe Dunlap, who is the Global Director of Training and Development at the CJ K group. And if you haven’t heard of the CJ K group, it is a privately held portfolio companies that support the book magazine catalog journal and commercial publishing industries. And they also dabble in supporting information providers. So I’m gonna let Joe explain that in detail. But I was just fascinated looking at the firm what they’re doing and how they’re contributing to the world of media. Now Joe has over 20 years of experience and lnd, which I don’t understand how he does, because he looks all of 17. But I’m sure he’s gonna give us his secrets, Agent secrets. But he is a true advocate for comprehensive training and development of individuals, which includes the support and not just, you know, wanting them types of trainings. And he’s going to tell you why he has an extreme passion about that in just a second. But he’s very unapologetic about it. And he really wants to transform l&d from being a transactional type of intervention to a transformational ones for both individuals and the companies that they support. So welcome to the podcast. Joe.

Joe Dunlap 

Thank you so much, Karen. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Karan Rhodes 

Oh, it’s a pleasure, pleasure to have you. So I cannot wait to dig into your story and your passions and your current and previous work. But before we do that, let’s peel back the layers of the onion a little bit and get to know a tad about you. So for as much as you feel comfortable. Would you mind sharing a tad about maybe your personal life or hobbies?

Joe Dunlap 

Absolutely. So thank you for the comment of the youthful look that I have on my face. It has to come to do within the first time of my life. I’m an empty nester. So my youngest daughter finally went off to college. My oldest daughter graduated college and my middle daughter is a senior in college this year. So my wife and I are actually cutting back to the just husband. So we’re gonna need to get out and enjoy things that we haven’t enjoyed in over 20 years. So maybe that’s a little bit of the shine in my face.

Karan Rhodes 

I bet. Give me one thing that you’ve gotten to do recently that you hadn’t been able to do in a long time. Believe

Joe Dunlap 

it or not, it’s just simply travel. My wife and I because my daughters were very active in sports that most of our weekends were occupied with something related to sports or other activities. And so now we get to get up on weekends and we’re just kind of exploring some of the small towns of Wisconsin and all that they have to offer and so that’s been just extremely enjoyable for us.

Karan Rhodes 

I bet. I don’t know if they have this in Wisconsin, but you know, Atlanta metro Atlanta is like huge because there’s a ton of like mini cities that we my husband and I love to get to each city has during especially during the spring, the have like a small arts carnival thing of sorts, where you have vendors, local vendors and things and we just love traveling from suburb to suburb to see you know, what the different things that they offer that are that really represent that particular suburb. So yeah, I definitely can get that

Joe Dunlap 

much more on the foodie side. So we go to the festivals and local towns is they’re having up like smaller little food vendors and we like to just enjoy the taste local to the area. Absolutely.

Karan Rhodes 

Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. So I’m curious Yeah, you know, when you were young A 16 1718 Did you dream of coming? Learning to development executive? Or did you stumble your way into the profession? I love to hear the story.

Joe Dunlap 

I’ll tell you, when you if you’d asked me when I was a senior in high school, what I was dreaming of being there was actually a journalist. I saw myself, you know, being Peter Jennings. So Tom Brokaw or somebody like that on the big news, I don’t think I have the face for it. But thank you for the previous comment. But yeah, that’s actually what really was sort of an inspiration for me. And I think it’s just because I’ve always been a news junkie throughout my whole life. So it was just that’s what I told you as a senior in high school that I was aspiring to be.

Karan Rhodes 

So tell us a little bit about your career journey? Where did you start? And how did you end up to where you are now?

Joe Dunlap 

So I started in the military. And as part of what is called your MOS, or your specialty within the military, after I did basic training, I was involved in personnel training. And so that’s where actually I got my introduction to like the ADDIE model, and some of the other methodologies that were needed development professionals know. And so it kind of grew on me. But back then, and updating myself instructional design was not a degree. Any college. Yeah, so I actually went for communications, and was kind of moving along those lines, because I had that interest in training. And by the time that I finished college, and then went to graduate school, I kind of moved over into organizational development, because there was kind of a similarity because the stint again, there’s still no learning and development fields within college. And then after graduating college or graduate graduate school, I managed to find an opportunity at a university nearby in Texas and started on the Eau de route, but kept kind of moving towards this as learning and development opportunities presented themselves, I was that kid in the candy store raised his hand, and got to do standard facilitation with you know, PowerPoint, and the old overhead slide projector and things like that. And it just continued to grow for me throughout my career is that, you know, as new technologies became around e learning, learning management systems, and of course, the continued growth of that I was always been that kid can start raise my hand said, I’ll give it a try. Let me try it out. And just, and here I am today, 20 plus years later, still in a field that I really love doing.

Karan Rhodes 

That is amazing.

Joe Dunlap 

Thank you.

Karan Rhodes 

And I’ve been I’ve had quite a mix of a special background part and HR executive, part leadership, development executive, and then organizational effectiveness executive. And so you know, I’ve been over 20 years in the business as well, it just still amazes me how companies and organizations still struggle with some of the basics of optimizing their talent, their development, it seems like it never ends. There are new tools and bells and whistles and things to think about and new models, if you will. But it seems to be a common thread and eight, even throughout history. And your mentors, were telling me, you know, what they experienced in years past, it seems to always be a struggle. And I’m just curious if you know, if we could answer, you know, solve that we’d be trillionaires right now. But I’m just curious if there if you have any thoughts on why a lot of companies and organizations still struggle, and they’re on this hamster hamster wheel, and trying to, you know, optimize their workforces.

Joe Dunlap 

And I will probably tell you, at least from my experience and learning development, and we’ve been having the same conversations in the l&d field for over 20 years, we’re still talking about the same stuff that I remember way back when I got Now, granted, we’re talking about different technology. But the problem that we’re still talking about is the same, you’re just trying to fix it with a new, shiny new toy without getting back to the human factor, like you’re talking about. And I think the underlying problem is that a lot of leaders are looking for a very quick fix without really understanding the human dynamic of which they’re dealing, you know, and understanding the motivations, the behaviors, the personalities of the individuals that make up their workforce. And so you know, that kind of here, we’re going to push it upon you approach has never really worked. And I think you’re starting to now see, especially with the more younger generations who are in the workforce, who are saying we’re not going to do that we’re not our parents. And so we saw what happened. And I always kind of now regurgitate back in those conversations to you’re now seeing a group of people who are entering the workforce who knew what happened back in 2008. You know, when we had the crash, and a lot of those parents, a lot of those kids saw what happened to their parents or their parents friends. Yeah. And they’re not buying into the company model loyalty that you and I grew up with. No, that’s not in it for them whatsoever. I mean, that’s what I see. We have a very young workforce that’s continually entering into our industry. And those are the things that I hear from them as they’re not buying what it was You and I grew up with.

Karan Rhodes 

Yeah. And what are your thoughts on, you know, when things aren’t going? Well, I’ve seen, you know, throughout my professional history when things aren’t going well or within an organization, the first lever business leaders try to pull is a weenie training, right? Can we find a course? Or can we find this magical pill to help turn things around? And they’re just disappointed around that. But why do you think that mindset is so persuasive? Because it’s been there forever. And it’s been proven not to work?

Joe Dunlap 

It’s true. And it’s typically called, we’d like to call it the one and done mindset. And for a lot of leaders, it’s this idea of, okay, well, we got educated in the classroom. So therefore, that’s the solution, right? And what a lot of them fail to think about is that their progress for them to lead at the top of their game came over years of experience, to have interactions with other people of dealing with different challenges and figuring out you know, basically failing and then succeeding, right, and so a series of those incidences nobody ever graduated from college, or an MBA program jumped right into a CEO role and was successful. No, not at all. Nobody’s ever done that. And I often make the analogy, when I’m having discussions with leaders about the hey, let’s do a workshop, let’s do a course let’s do something elearning is your kind of basically coming to the same equivalent of a football team, as an example here is that you want to do preseason training, I think that’s good enough to get you to the Super Bowl. And the whole idea of continuously learning just like their career is, is that, you know, you want to do just enough to keep moving forward. But it has to be continuous, you’re always adjusting for what’s next, you know, and this and that idea of that, you know, football team is, Who am I playing next? What are those matchups look like, you know, what’s the weather going to be things like that. And so the same thing in business, and we see it all the time now is that business is constantly changing. That course, that workshop that you wanted six months ago, is probably not going to have a shelf life of more than a year. So yeah, I mean, things are changing too fast, you see that? I can’t remember some of the statistics that I’ve read recently. But 30 to 50% of all jobs are going to be replaced or changed in the next five, seven years. What’s the shelf life of that workshop or that course anymore? It’s always has to be continuous learning so that you’re ready to now deal with what comes next.

Karan Rhodes 

You’re so right. And that was one of the reasons why I commissioned a research study and read the book because I felt that most organizations, honestly, they do pretty good about delivery of training. So for that course, or that module, or that intervention, for that, within itself in isolation, they do pretty good at that. But we really fall down on the follow up that ongoing support and actually teaching our talent, how to execute, and how to pivot based on the new working environments or industry environments or geopolitical environments that they’re having to work in. And when people don’t know what to do, and they get stuck, they revert back to old behaviors, no matter you know what to do. So what you are saying is, it resonates with me so, so much. There’s a whole areas of support. And as there’s education, I think, to our leaders on what is needed, what are your thoughts about that?

Joe Dunlap 

I absolutely agree. And it’s other things that actually lit I didn’t do them. And we’ve been talking about for 20 years is we’ve been set up to be the order takers, you deliver that course you’re done, you move on, right. And, you know, as somebody who’s been doing this for 20 years, I’ve never developed a course of my lifetime that was going to prepare anybody to do everything in relationship to their job was going to get you enough to get you started with some basic understanding. Yeah, it’s a basic skills. And the expectation was, is that I’m going to hand you off to that manager, and they’re going to grow you from there. But what I’ve come to learn 20 years is often that manager was expecting plug and play. Yes. And then they’re not satisfied when that person is not plugged in. They was like, Whoa, that two week training program was intended to devote your full professional time and when you start having that conversation, and especially because now I’ve kind of been debating the printing business, but similar to the manufacturing industry, that full fledged professional that’s operating at the top of their game could be two to four years down the road. Oh yeah, of experience and time working with that machine seeing different types of products and things that we’re doing. They’re not going to get all that in a month long training that I might offer them. It’s just not realistic for that. So…

Karan Rhodes 

And you know what? The way job hopping is going, they may not even be there six years down the road. Right?

Joe Dunlap 

That is exactly true. Yeah.

Karan Rhodes 

So and I always tell you know, clients that the training is almost like like their baby steps or their maybe their ingredients for a dish, it’s just one ingredient that is contributing to the final dish, if you will, that that takes a lot of care and baking and monitoring and testing. And so now you’re not going to have a cake with you though cracking one egg, that’s not gonna happen, you got to do a lot more, I really want to give a mint to do this earlier. But I want to give some space to explain to the audience let the C J K group does and how the portfolio companies kind of work together, if they do.

Joe Dunlap 

Absolutely. So, and you did a great job of summing it up earlier. So when you think about the industry, and content management, so I’m going to kind of kind of combine it all together

Karan Rhodes 

Ok, sure!

Joe Dunlap 

About magazines, books, brochures, posters. And so what CJ kid is started off as a printing company. So we are printing books, we’re printing posters, brochures, magazines, you name it. And what our CEO has done a great job of is recognize where the industry is headed. And so we’ve grown through acquisition. And so now you start moving much more, you still have the foundational print business, and that’s the shirt and part of CJK. But then we also have our company’s total in knowledge Works Global. And that’s more more in the digital space. So now you’re looking at online magazines, online content management, and we even offer content management services as well as the creation of that content. And now we’ve also grown into video and things like that. So the way that he’s looking at it that Chris Carson is looking at is that if it’s content, we probably need to be playing in that space. So that’s how we grow as we start looking for those smaller companies that are trying to get ahead and come in. And we can certainly purchase those companies if they’re at that space where they want to be purchased. But that’s how we’re growing is to look at what other areas of content can we get into based on the needs of business today,

Karan Rhodes 

And so the training and development executive, over a number of portfolio companies. How do you think about the approach to upskilling? Because the different companies, although they’re in the similar type of umbrella, they probably have identities of their own needs of their own. So how do you and your team think about approaching the diverse needs of you know, all of your workforce across the portfolio companies?

Joe Dunlap 

Yeah, so one of the things that we look at, and we start at the end of the row, and we say, what does good performance look like? And what is impacting that? So you might think about your organizational values and culture as an example, right? What is that leader, and you know, this very well, leadership professional, what is that leader value, because what that leader values is obviously going to influence that team. So you got to make sure that you’re now hitting on some of the values that that leader wants. And then what did the employees value as well, because they’re going to be the people who are selling you to make l&d Sound good is that they actually met our needs, because otherwise, as you will know, you deliver that course didn’t even touch or barely touch what it was they needed to learn, you get a bad reputation. And that’s with organizations where that was the case. And we were not trusted because of that. So you start by kind of painting a picture of what good looks like and you back all the way out to what basically is the beginning are the skills, what are those skills that get us from here to here? And what value are they actually aligning to so everything that you’re building along the way, needs to align to some value in some way. So you can tell that story. And so what happens is, is that, you know, using like, an agile terminology, there’s user stories. So for that individual, how many user stories do you have that aligned to organizational value that I now need to build a learning or training resource for that helps you get to that end place, and what happens is, is that there’s a start middle and end as an example. And so here’s where I’ve got to start uses, you can start your path, but now I have to continually support you as you’re going to be dealing with new things on your job that you’re going to need to get your resources so that you can deal with those situations as you continue to grow your career.

Karan Rhodes 

No, absolutely makes a ton of sense. Do you ever get pushback from your executives of gosh, we can’t have either for the training or it’s too much time away from the core business, or we want you to prioritize? Do you ever get to get any questions or pushback? And if so, what are some of those common inquiries from the business leaders?

Joe Dunlap 

 Yeah, and that’s actually pretty common. I get pushback all the time. And a lot of it is is of course, there’s always the time component, right? Because a lot of those leaders are being driven by what the end outcome is, which is usually the product or service right? So we’ve got to admit that revenue or product quality, or whatever it may be, they’re driven by that at the end of the day. So training really is kind of a secondary thing of how is it going to get me there. So what I tried to do is minimize as much time away from the job as possible. And now look at how can I deliver that learning that you need at that moment of need? So it becomes much more of a micro learning prospect is that instead of doing a course, can I do a small video? Yeah, and I do a job aid, can I do these things? So therefore, when that person is confronted with that challenge, they have a resource available to them, so that you have start thinking much more about the tools that that individual might be working in? And how do you now deliver to those tools so that they can use it? Because they don’t have to leave their work their workflow at that moment to learn something?

Karan Rhodes 

Yeah, absolutely. And just visit some of our listeners are l&d professionals there market, can you share with them just a snippet of what micro learning is?

Joe Dunlap 

Yeah, so micro learning. The best way I can probably say for anybody who’s not l&d professionals, think of a tick tock video, you know, so you’re talking about something that’s two to three minutes long. It’s explaining something very functional, a good YouTube video, here’s how you do this. And so it’s very specific about you’re doing one task, maybe a couple steps. And that’s it.

Karan Rhodes 

That’s right. That’s right. And there’s a very bite sized chunks, it’s very focused, very specific. And then the idea is that you have some kind of framework to string them together to make sure that they understand the red thread that flows through what you know, what is the what will all these steps, then learning them knowledge? What will they help elevate for me as far as competencies or skills? or what have you said?

Joe Dunlap 

Absolutely, yeah.

Karan Rhodes 

Yeah. Sounds great. Well, even with this conversation, Joe, it it doesn’t shock me now of why you selected the particular leadership tactic that you did. That came from my book. And for my new listeners out there, commission, a research study about four years ago, five years ago, really on the aspects of successful leadership execution. And then out of the research came seven main tactics that are included in every single successful leadership effort. They’re not brain surgery type of things, but they are tactics that you definitely should increase your acumen in. And we’d love to ask our guests on the podcast, which of the seven really popped out for them, because all seven are equally as important, and you use them in different situations. But one in particular ends up really resonating with folks and said, Joe was so kind enough to share. The tactic of leading with intrapreneurship is one that kind of popped out for him. And for those of you don’t know, leading with intrapreneurship, is all about, you know, bringing to the table, new opportunities to develop or improve processes or services or products or operations. So it’s just whatever within whatever entity you’re in, whether it be an organization, that company and nonprofit or whatever, you know, finding ways to continuously improve upon processes and products and services, to better both individuals in the organization. It’s all about leading with intrapreneurship. This is about. So I’m just curious, Joe, why did that one kind of pop out for you?

Joe Dunlap 

Yeah, so it actually started about seven years ago, for me, I was working with a financial services company, and they were starting to now move into the digital space. And so they wanted to move quickly, they had been very much a face to face, very traditional organization. And so now they need to move quickly and generate ideas. And so that idea of intrapreneurship really started to take hold is you were working with teams is what ideas do you have let’s you know, we want to start throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, so to speak. And to see the energy that came from people that I had worked with for years, in some case, more than a decade, really just become alive again, oh, boy, now they’re actually listening to me and my ideas of how we can improve as an organization and the energy that came from that really created that engagement. And so now having kind of moved away from that field into manufacturing, we kind of apply the principles. Well, it’s a twi or training within the industry. And part of that is of the whole methodology is that you get to a point with a, you know, a professional who might be working the assembly line or whatever it may be that they start to recognize some of the flaws that exist within the process. And they have ideas and if you can give them a channel in which they can then start to share those ideas. And so now you start thinking about like lean manufacturing and things like that, that they can say we can do this and make this whole process better. Once they see that they have a channel in which to do that. And those changes start taking place. You have a much more engaged energized way For us, and so having seen that across three different industries, pardon me in the last 10 years, I know that it just resonates with me, because I’ve seen it applied in so many different places by so many different people that I know it works. And so I’m always very encouraging of, we want to make sure that we’re giving our employees the opportunity to help us become better. Just a top down mindset.

Karan Rhodes 

Absolutely. Well, I’m asking another question, Joe. And it’s okay, if you don’t have an answer, but it’s, I’m always curious as I try to stay on top of the mega trends that are going on in the world of work. But is there anything that’s kind of top of mind for you, as a learning development professional, that you’re keeping your eye on over the next, you know, six to 18 months, that may impact you know, the work that you do, or the work that you propose, or your leaders to embrace?

Joe Dunlap 

Well, for me, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but I do have my eye on the integration of AI, into our printing business? And how will those advancements start to impact the work that we do? So I’m very interested in, you know, the type of data that we’re going to receive or other, you know, advances that this technology is going to bring to the business that we do, and what will that result in from a training perspective that I may now need to incorporate, because there’s really two different lines of thought is that as AI starts to integrate itself, in our business, I’m going to have to train existing people into the use of that technology, but we still have a maintenance, I still have people who are coming into the organization that I have to teach the foundation of the basics to before I can get them to that point of even discovering AI, because you still need to know how this machine runs and the traditional process before you’re ready to, you know, kind of embrace what this technology is doing for you. If you don’t understand how you got there, then you’re not very good as a professional. So I understand. You got to understand what what it took to get there to understand how this this technology is now benefiting you?

Karan Rhodes 

Absolutely. You’re so right. I think we’re all struggling with that right now, I do quite a bit of interim HR work with companies. And, you know, they’re all trying to, you know, figure it out from a business perspective. But then when I talked to fellow colleagues from HR functions, the full breadth that everyone say functions, not just, you know, HR itself. But it’s amazing that I’m hearing that we’re being brought in to help lead the thinking in this effort, when a lot of us aren’t trained in AR technology, and upskill ourselves at least, and what the concepts are, what it can do. And then to think strategically about how this can impact our companies and our industries. And it sounds like you’re facing this thing.

Joe Dunlap 

Pretty much. Yes, yeah.

Karan Rhodes 

Well, Joe, I’m just curious as well, with over 20 years in the industry, or work history, I should say, what does it take for you to lead at the top of your game?

Joe Dunlap 

What I…for me to leave the top of my game, I want to see that commitment from the organization of leaders that they want to develop their people. Once I see that, then I’m ready to go, you know, everything’s moving forward. But if you can’t get quite the commitment, you know, I’m gonna give you a great example of this that actually happened. The news recently, Slack, the company slack, took an entire week off to have its workforce trained, right? It was something called Ranger status, I think was something to that effect. But they basically shut down operations for weeks. So everybody could achieve Ranger status. And I thought, Oh, that’s interesting is a great selling point. Yeah, we do development. But then as you start to read a little bit more Ranger status was about 40 hours of learning, which could be about anything, and I kind of started to step back for them going. Okay, so you’re saying that you’re you’re committed to learning? Are you committed to employee development, which basically stopped work because nobody had the time to go in and do a learning throughout the year, so you had to stop operations. But more importantly, you didn’t even tied together what it was you needed them to learn to advance themselves wherever they could take any course they wanted. That’s not going to create a great reputation for yourself. Certainly not for the l&d department. I do it for them. Because I think that’s going to leave a bad taste in some people’s mouth. It’s like the annual compliance learning. Well, let’s stop everything sorted. But it can be a range of status. And we can have this but I didn’t view that as a commitment to learn, actually growth. I have a view that is much more of that was more of a status thing. And it just Yeah, exactly. It rubbed me the wrong way when I was reading this, because I’m like, that’s not a selling point. It’s actually comes across very negative.

Karan Rhodes 

 It is it is for I think for you and me, but I think if you had and this is just Karen’s take, if it made the news on CNN or Fox or whatever y’all are, y’all get your news. I think the general public will be like, Wow, they’re cool. They let them take any course I want to.

Joe Dunlap 

Yeah!

Karan Rhodes 

And it is it’s a publicity I guess enhancing thing. But if the core desire is to uplevel, their competencies or skill sets,

Joe Dunlap 

Right.

Karan Rhodes 

It’s very rare that that’s going to accomplish that in a meaningful way.

Joe Dunlap 

Absolutely

Karan Rhodes 

In my opinion anyway. So. Throw tomatoes at me, Joe. Feel free to disagree with me…

Joe Dunlap 

I agree with you. Not at all. I am absolutely agreeing with you.

Karan Rhodes 

Oh, well, Joe, gosh, I blinked and time has flown by this has been absolutely fantastic. We tremendously. Thank you for the gift of your time. But before I let you go, I would love for you to give voice to and we’ll have information about you. And I show notes, obviously, but give voice to if people are more curious about CJK or you how can they learn more?

Joe Dunlap 

Well, absolutely. So I would tell you that the best source for both is on LinkedIn, CJ K on at least a daily basis is sharing information about all of its companies underneath all the portfolio of companies. So there’s usually at least one video on a daily basis, certainly every other day, where they’re telling us about the history of winning organizations in the services and products that we provide. And for me pretty much the same. If you looked at my LinkedIn profile, you’ll see my history of where I’ve been what I’ve been doing, you know, I put myself out there just so that if you want to have a conversation, you’re great. But here’s where I’m coming from, I want to be just upfront. So

Karan Rhodes 

Yeah, and I love that about you, you didn’t really know you, you know before today deeply. But as you know, we do our research, and you do come across as very authentic and you have the receipts to back it up. You know, you always talk about good stuff. So we really appreciate your your insights that you share with us today.

Joe Dunlap 

Thank you, Karen. It’s been wonderful being here.

Karan Rhodes 

Awesome. And thank you listeners. Also for the gift of your time, we appreciate you. Being great supporters of the league at the top of your game podcasts. You know, there’s only one asset I ask of you is just to subscribe and share the podcast with just one friend so that they too can gain insights on how to lead at the top of their game. Thank you so much again, and see you next week. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.