Episode 88 | How GTM Teams Can Marry Data to Power Enterprise-level Growth with Matt Elders

Matt Elders  00:00

But I would argue our real differentiation comes in our ability to manage and harness the power of data. And then a lot of the sort of innovation and AI capabilities that we brought to market that again, allow companies to deliver leading edge experiences for their customers.

Voiceover  00:05

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:44

Hello, my superstars. This is Karen and welcome to another episode of the leader, the top of your game podcast. We have such a tremendous guest on today’s show that is going to give us insights on how he and his team think about revenue and growing business at a very high growth company. And on today’s show, we have Matt Elders, who is the EVP of Revenue at Cordial. And Cordial is a technology company whose software automates billions of data driven data driven messages, like across email, texts, mobile apps, social media, direct mail, and a ton more. Now their mission is to help the world’s largest brands drives scalable revenue growth, and lasting customer connections. And I don’t know a single company that does not want that. So I so excited to delve more and learn more about what cordial does how Matt and his leadership team helps to steer the company and to get a few insights in the sales and growth arena. So welcome to the podcast, Matt.

Matt Elders  02:03

Thanks, Karen. Awesome,

Karan Rhodes  02:05

Oh, it’s so awesome to have you. Now, as I mentioned, I’m dying to get into our conversation. But before I do, so we always love to learn a tidbit or two about our guests. So just for as much as you feel comfortable, would you mind giving us just a sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Matt Elders  02:22

Sure, born and raised in Connecticut, went to school in Maine and moved to California back in 1989. Been here since then, and sort of travel the high growth venture backed marketing technology companies all my career. I live here with my wife, two Golden Retrievers, and actually have two sons both out of the house at this point, and one presently in New York, who’s 23 and then one who’s 25, and lives in San Francisco. So we spend a lot of time with them. And obviously blessed with the Bay Area, and in particular Marin County, where it’s beautiful. So we spend a lot of time outside and enjoy hiking and biking and lots of sort of water activities and all the things that come along with being in Northern California.

Karan Rhodes  03:06

Well, you know what my best friend is in Northern California. And so I know is gorgeous, number one. And number two, that’s something we have similar in common that we our daughter just moved and started her she finished college and started her life. But you know, the difference is, she’s literally eight minutes away. It’s still in Atlanta eight minutes away from I don’t know if that’s really flying the coop, what do you think?

Matt Elders  03:31

Well, that’s close. We have a ridge that separates us, so…

Karan Rhodes  03:37

Oh, yeah, that’s different.

Matt Elders  03:39

But it’s still close. 20 minutes, it’s, uh, you know, there’s water in between us.

Karan Rhodes  03:45

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing that man. Well, let’s dive right into our conversation. Because I know we have only a short amount of time, I probably could talk forever. But let’s start out by sharing if you don’t mind, just a few of the highlights of your career before you join Cordial, how did you get into the sales and revenue space?

Matt Elders  04:06

Great question. I would sort of characterize my career as sort of three phases. I’ve always liked, people always sort of engaged with people and always have looked to try and help company or help individuals and ultimately companies solve problems, which I think led me to sales. But I spent, you know, the better part of the last 30 years actually working in 14 Different businesses have seen a lot of different outcomes, everything from two public offerings, one private equity acquisition, three strategic acquisitions, and then actually to shut down so I’ve had a lot of different experiences that I think that have informed decisions that I’ve made over time. And when I think about my career, I would sort of characterize it almost as you know, we talked about kids, but sort of the phases that the children go through which is, you know, early part you’re learning a ton. You’re still a child. I was very blessed early on with experience as a gardener. And then signed Corp saw both public offerings exposed to lots of incredible people. middle part of my career, I would characterize as sort of the struggling teen trying to, you know, sort of overstretch and do more. And, you know, I went very early in terms of size of company and sort of investment round went after title and rapid outcome and learned a lot during that period of time. And then sort of in the late later stage of my career, sort of the last couple of companies that I’ve been with being content square Tipco, and percolate prior to cordial businesses were larger, again, in and around marketing technology, still high growth. So it was sort of a builder mindset versus an operator mindset. But I was able to capitalize on a lot of the experiences that I’d had in the earlier part of my career and informed decisions that I made. So lots of excitement and lots of growth during that period of my career. And then actually reconnected with a former product leader, who today is the chief product and engineering officer for cordial. And he indicated or shared with me that they were looking at the time for somebody to lead revenue, join the business 15 months ago, and I would argue, it’s been one of the best and most rewarding professional experiences of my career, which is exciting. And I hopefully, it’s the last of 14 companies that I spend time with. But it’s been a you know, just a great run a small team. I mean, we’ve got 140 some odd people, my team is small, but incredibly talented, and seeing great success.

Karan Rhodes  06:39

That’s amazing. Well, congratulations on the quick ramp up into Cordell and its success you all have experienced thus far. And by reading about you all, when I was prepping, it seems like there’s a long runway ahead of you all of so hopefully, you know it will continue to be. Now for our listeners, would you mind sharing? I know I didn’t do as justice. So would you mind sharing a little bit more about what core jewel actually does and how it helps serve its clients.

Matt Elders  07:07

Here, we’re in the cross channel marketing space. So we offer a data platform and one of the more advanced data platforms and marry that with execution capabilities, which includes email, SMS, mobile push and open channel capability. And the whole idea is about really capitalizing on, you know, a company’s data, right and customer data, and then delivering real time personal experiences, to enable companies to, you know, achieve desired outcomes of their customers, right, it could be purchase, it could be engagement, it could be really whatever they’re trying to seek, you know, and we’ve been fortunate to work with some of the largest brands on the planet, including Abercrombie and Levi’s realtor.com. So very large businesses with, you know, millions of people that they interact with. And one of the things that we’re finding most interesting about the market right now is this desire to move toward a consolidated marketing platform, to free up resource in these marketing organizations, yet continue to sort of facilitate the growth and the acceleration of these businesses. And so it’s been a it’s been an incredible, incredible run. And there’s a lot of interest right now in the market for our capabilities,

Karan Rhodes  08:25

I can imagine, but is the space very crowded? It seems like there are a ton of market arcane type of people like, I don’t almost like to the extent that you all do, but um, how do you differentiate yourself?

Matt Elders  08:39

Great question. I think the you’re absolutely right. Every business on the planet has a marketing platform that does email and does SMS for those companies that obviously use message, you know, various messaging capabilities. I think the big difference. And again, it’s sort of we’ve seen a number of waves in the market, right. So, you know, if you roll back the clock, 30 years ago, it was really the, you know, Salesforce and Oracle and SAP and Adobe, and sort of the larger businesses that acquired pieces of technology that did this. And then fast forward to call it 10 or 12 years ago, there was this realization that some of those technologies were reaching the limits, and more data was becoming accessible to these businesses. And so when we founded the company, when the company was founded, it was founded on the premise that in order to deliver personalized experiences, it was critical to be able to harness all of that data, and to connect that data with execution capabilities. So that was the premise of that when the company was founded. And we’ve been able to mature each of the different channels very quickly and delivered these experiences, which I believe has set us apart from other companies in the space. And, you know, there are certainly other companies that we compete with today that are sort of in this more modern category of marketing technology companies. But I would argue our real differentiation comes in our ability to manage and harness the power of data. And then a lot of the sort of innovation and AI capabilities that we brought to market that, again, allow companies to deliver leading edge experiences for their customers.

Karan Rhodes  10:13

Amazing. That is absolutely amazing. Now, I would anticipate the sun, my experience going, I think you’re, you’re one of your main targets are larger and enterprise level companies, which are complex with themselves. So I’m curious when you’re talking to the Ambercrombie reason, you know, the big boys, if you will, the logo companies, how do you, you know, really get a seat at the table and talk to them to express how you all are different and what you can provide to them? Because it’s very hard breaking through having supported enterprise sales things myself from an HR perspective, but watching them work, it’s hard to break into enterprise level company that V don’t have your act together.

Matt Elders  10:59

Yeah. Great, great question, you know, I think the you know, I would sort of give credit to the founding team, led by our CEO Jeremy Swift, we were launched as cordial, and Cordial, you know, by purpose, right. And so we’ve, I think, anchored a lot of our, our go to market, our client relationships, how we represent ourselves and market, how we treat our customers, and sort of the passion around our clients success in the word cordial, right. And so I think we’ve been able to build a reputation and market that is very well respected, sort of number one, and it sort of shines through to everything we do. So you know, I would argue that the approach that we call the sales organization, or the go to market organization, take isn’t necessarily a sales motion file. Obviously, we’re trying to acquire customers, but it’s really about trying to understand the challenges that our clients are having, and solve those challenges in as transparent manner as possible. And if we do that, then we do have clients like the ones that we’ve mentioned, that are very vocal in market, right, I think today, one of the biggest challenges, you know, and by comparison, if I think back to the early part of my career, the level of transparency and information in the market is so significant. And the decision process that most of these businesses go through today is very independent of suppliers, right? So they’re gonna get to 65, or 75, or 70% of their decision, absent any interaction. And, you know, we’ve sort of prided ourselves in anchoring our, again, the sort of the value proposition and the the value of the business in this premise around cordial, and meeting and exceeding client expectations. And what’s what that’s done is it’s, you know, word spreads very quickly, when one of the fastest growing and most profitable retailers is using Portugal as their messaging platform, right. And so that’s something that’s sort of inherent to how we operate. And, you know, what I would say is, we see I run the revenue function, sort of my counterpart, who runs the client experience function has a very similar mindset. So we work very closely to make sure that that journey that a client goes through, in consideration, purchase implementation, and then sort of value realization is tightly coupled, and sort of adheres to that mindset. And it works. Right. So one of the things that we’ve found it, you know, all of these trade shows it go to pretty quickly faces, you know, faces become very familiar.

Karan Rhodes  13:33

It’s a small world. We’re closer than you think.

Matt Elders  13:35

It’s a small world, you know, we had great events, we bring a lot of people together, and we sort of pride ourselves on, you know, sort of education versus selling, which again, is a is a great sort of thesis and, you know, again, the market, the market has changed so dramatically since since I started my career.

Karan Rhodes  13:54

I bet. For those who may not understand what does it EVP of revenue do? Where do you spend most of your time every day focused on?

Matt Elders  14:06

Great, great question, Karan. So I sort of marketing is sort of an adjacent organization. So naturally, I work very closely with marketing to help inform, you know, go to market sort of ideal customer profile and ensure that the resourcing is properly mapped to how we go to market. As we sort of identify organizations that are actually starting to or in market. Obviously, my team is the one that predominantly engages, helps to understand qualify, and ultimately represent our capabilities and obviously bring them toward closure of partnership. We obviously win a fair number of the ones that were engaged in, and then we spent a lot of time in the transition process from you know, sort of late stage opportunity to new relationship to kicking that relationship off to make sure that the, you know the employee mentation and the client experience team is completely up to speed. And so I sort of sit or my team sits in between, you know, brand marketing demand and client experience.

Karan Rhodes  15:11

Is your team separate from the quote unquote, sales team? Or are is that part?

Matt Elders  15:17

No. That’s my team.

Karan Rhodes  15:18

Oh. Ok.

Matt Elders  15:19

So I’ve got in my organization, I’ve got a sort of a an SDR team, I’ve got a sales team, I’ve got a pre sales team that sort of focuses on the technology side, I’ve got a pre sales team that focuses more on pro, you know, sort of email programs and messaging programs, and sort of the services aspect to that, and then a revenue operations team that really supports that entire, you know, chain, if you will, from marketing operations, sales operations to client operations, but it’s small. I mean, I think if there’s anything that I’ve learned, you know, in my career is more people doesn’t necessarily equate to more success. Beer true. Yeah. Right. And I, you know, I think the lessons that I’ve learned the experiences that I’ve learned and success that I’ve had, you know, I would go back to sort of great people that are on the bus, they’re not partially on the bus, they’re sort of committed to the mission, they’re willing to sort of challenge the norm a little bit, they like to move quickly, and they’re willing to move quickly. And while they’re concerned with their performance, they’re more interested in sort of the team or the mission or the company’s success, which again, is, I think, a really important attribute for a team name.

Karan Rhodes  16:36

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, as a leader of I’ll just call it the revenue team. But we got to understand this in the under, all under the sales and revenue, umbrella and growth umbrella, what are some, in your opinion? What are some of the success traits that you try to instill with your team to ensure that, you know, they have a great chance for success? Like, are there function as a high performing team, because you have different segments are job functions that are focused on different aspects of the sales process, but pulling them all together and ensuring there’s a common understanding and collaboration? It’s sometimes easier said than done. So I’m just curious your perspective on how you approach keeping in building a high performing team?

Matt Elders  17:23

Yeah. To me, it starts with sort of the recruiting process and hiring process, right. And I made reference that a couple of times the book that we sort of employ or use is the ideal team player that focuses on sort of key attributes. And you know, who is the ideal team, teammate, which is sort of anchored in three attributes, right? One being smart, right, both EQ and IQ. Second, being humble, which really speaks to being part of something versus being solo and then hungry. And I think those first step in the process, right, is to hire the right people. Right, number one, I think number two, and he made this comment earlier, it’s a very crowded market, right? I mean, I think if you look at the loom escape that has continued to grow, there’s so many companies fighting for very few dollars, that there are a lot of people that you’re competing with, in one way or the other. Right? And so it is the recognition that nothing replaces hard work and focus, right. So you’ve really got to start there. And you’ve got to, and again, whether it’s SDR, whether it’s pre sales, whether it’s sales, I think critical attribute or critical thing is to continue to do the hard work to enable your success, right? You can’t just sort of be lucky, right? It’s you’ve got to do the work, you know, and at the same time, the realization that it things don’t happen. Bear with me one second here, you know, things don’t happen overnight, right. And there’s a sort of a development process. And again, what’s interesting sort of about the world that we live in, which is different than other worlds that I’ve lived in is the decision process that these businesses go through. It’s not a 24 hour cycle, right? They can be 1218 24 months. And quality and quality work is equally important to speed and sort of acceleration, right. And so one of the things that I’ve been particularly proud about is the high degree of quality work that our team does every day in understanding the processes that these businesses are going through in the problems they’re trying to solve and not shortcutting that process and trying to get to an answer to quickly. Right, which, again, that then I think, sort of anchors back to this notion of cordial and transparency and the the willingness to educate and help the businesses understand what our true capabilities are, you know, and to sort of add to that, the other thing that we found in the market today, which is different than maybe it was, you know, sort of during COVID Is that money is at a premium right, and there aren’t lots of small dollar was to go out and license lots of different technologies. And so there’s this move toward consolidation. And what’s happened over time is you’ve got lots of technology suppliers that have claimed that they can do lots of different things. And so it’s oftentimes a hard decision for a business to make in terms of what the right mix is. Yeah. So we do spend a lot of time really processing and understand use case and requirements and critical technologies and, you know, ultimately, ideally, reach a place where the business is, you know, concludes that cordials, the right partner, it’s not short circuited, right. It’s really designed to be thoughtful and intelligent.

Karan Rhodes  20:41

And that’s what I think is key, just what you said, Man, because you’re right, a lot of technology companies. And this is just from me observing, I’m a voracious reader. And most of my career was in tech, so supporting tech organizations. So I’ve tried to be a power user and understand how the markets evolve. A lot of companies end up adding features and say, Oh, we can do that. But it wasn’t part of their core expertise. And yes, they might be able to check a box, but it might be a C version versus like, cordials a version of it. But having those conversations with your prospective clients, or your in your current clients to better understand their needs and differentiate your capabilities versus someone else is absolutely key. I’m just curious as well, I guess you all have the platform that the licenses that they purchase, correct. That’s your revenue model. Okay. And so, do you all do customizations by chance? And the reason I ask is, in my experience, sometimes there’s some interesting friction between sales and the engineering team are so for developers, because customers ask for features and benefits and customizations. And engineering teams are working, try to meet as many requests as they can now, but then also plan for future evolutions of your product. So I’m interested in how those dynamics are at Cordial.

Matt Elders  22:12

Great question. The, I mean, the interesting thing, right, is that in any sort of technology environment, call it a function in a business, we’re obviously talking about marketing, there are lots of different pieces of technology that are used for lots of different things, right? You know, and oftentimes, when we engage with a prospective client, and we learn about their technology, environment, naturally integration, right, with those various capabilities, tools, what have you is critically important. And what I would say is in sort of the early days of courtroom for that matter, any business, a lot of time is spent integrating with those pieces of technology, oftentimes, to your point in more of a one off type situation. And that may or may not be part of sort of the strategic vision of the business, and could potentially distract the engineering team a little bit to its mission. And what I will tell you is that we made a decision to sort of launch or bring to market an integration framework designed to make it really easy to integrate with different datasets. Again, you know, the our core value proposition is we believe we have the most sophisticated data platform in the market. And so naturally, our intent is to bring more data in to capitalize on more about that person, so that we can then interact with them in the most most effective manner. And so I would say, explicitly, your question, we tend to avoid, or try and stay away from customizations that aren’t going to be applicable in value to all of our customers. Right, number one, and then number two, one of the things that, you know, obviously, any business, ours included, oftentimes does is in looking at go to market, it’s sort of about types of companies that we interact with and sell to, and those that we don’t. And so we’ve been very thoughtful, I think about how we’ve gone to market, what we call our ICP, which is very focused on, you know, large leading innovative retail brands largely, and then other verticals that are closely aligned and have similar requirements, versus going from one ICP, and then dramatically shifting to another, because again, it causes lots of friction in allocation of product and engineering resource.

Karan Rhodes  24:32

Absolutely. And are you all, do you mostly serve us base customers, or are you global?

Matt Elders  24:40

So we are we are predominately focused on North American companies. So a number of them, I mean, including, you know, an Abercrombie, a Levi’s and orbelian and our handful of others that have customers have offices and operations globally. So we’ve got people today in in Western Europe that serve clients and also So in Eastern Europe who are part of our engineering team.

Karan Rhodes  25:03

And then does AI play in any way into your platforms yet?

Matt Elders  25:07

And yeah, absolutely. And what obviously one of the dependencies of AI as a capability is sort of access to data and the ability to sort of learn and understand and so sort of inherent, the maturity of our data platform, our approach is a little bit unique in the market in that we really start or anchor in this notion of understanding versus generating rights. So that and the contention is that if you don’t understand who this person is, and you don’t understand their habits, and you don’t, and their experiences and all of the things that they’ve done, where they spend time on sort of digital experiences, or store, what have you, it’s very hard to develop auto develop, if you will artificially develop anything that’s relevant to that person, right. So what we find in market is that many of our competitors have sort of out of the box models and capabilities that they brought to market that aren’t necessarily informed by the this notion of understanding one. And then the second thing is we look at it sort of in three different buckets, right, we have a very sort of keen understanding of the message itself, right, whether or not you know how the message manifests itself, what it looks like content that’s included, how it’s organized, all those types of things, right, we have a very keen understanding of the customer, he or she right in terms of who they are and what they do and what they’ve done, and anything that we can possibly understand about them. And then the third piece, which we believe is critically important, as well is, in most marketing functions today, the marketing teams are overwhelmed with a number of technologies that they’re actually having to use and the number of logins and the systems. And so the rationale for hiring these people, and I think what what these people really wanted to do was be creative and come to market with new and innovative ideas, is somewhat challenged with the dependency on all these different systems. And so we really focus on and trying to improve the lives of these marketers by delivering capability that capitalizes on sort of what they do and how they work. And you know, what they’re trying to accomplish at a systems level, which again, is sort of AI driven, it’s like, if you understand what they’re trying to accomplish, and you can marry message, you can marry customer data, and you can marry, you could marry inventory data, you could marry weather, you could marry location, you could write all of these different things. And then sort of potentially even program objectives. Right, think about, you know, one program could be about improving margin, one could be about improving growth, one could be about sort of getting rid of excess inventory. So there are lots of different types of objectives that marketers have responsibility to do. And so, you know, all of a sudden, we’ve, you’ve got the data, and you’ve got an AI Level Layer on top of it in capability, then all of a sudden, you can do things that, you know, a business that doesn’t necessarily have access to data can’t do.

Karan Rhodes  28:07

Can’t do as well. Makes a ton of sense. Wow. Well, what an NLP and refreshing conversation of that I could talk to you for another hour of it. Unfortunately, we’re coming close on time. But we cannot let you sneak out of here. Without asking, you know, our signature question that we asked all of our guests. As you know, our company did a ton of research on leadership execution. And we wrote about the results of the findings in a book called Lead at the top of your game. Out of that came seven main focus areas that are always involved in any big leadership effort. And we always ask our guests, which one kind of resonated for you, although all seven are equally as important and you use them in different ways. But you were so kind to share that leading with courageous agility really pop for you. And for my new listeners out there, leading with courageous agility is all about having the courage and the fortitude to take calculated risk, or stand up for what you believe in, even if the future is uncertain or unclear. Even if you don’t know it’s all about still taking baby steps forward, even though you’re not absolutely sure with the intimate self may be, like curious minds, wanting them at Why did courageous agility kind of pop for you?

Matt Elders  29:24

Yeah, great, great question Karan that, you know, to me, me now called in 2024, versus 2018, or 2012, or what have you, I’ve got a lot more access to data and information and trends and what’s actually happening, right, and all of those things are sort of all those data points are readily available. And, you know, oftentimes, I think individuals sort of orient too much around overthinking things. And you know, that’s a decision in itself because it takes longer and it getting from 85% to 100% isn’t necessarily worth the time? Paralysis? No, no. And so, you know, and one of the things that, you know, I’m pretty vocal about with my leadership team in the business is we need to sort of emphasize speed and while thoughtful, over sort of just trying to over engineer something, right, and stay close to it, right. So it’s not like go make a quick decision, go and come back in a year. But it stay close to it, and really sort of this test and learn and course correct, versus building this massive strategy and launching something. So I tend to believe that that’s the approach now at the same time, what I will tell you is, it’s not like I go out and make a decision and execute. Right, there are lots of both data points, and then, you know, sort of dependency on teammates, and appears and other people in the organization that sort of informed that. So it’s not an isolation. And it’s not,

Karan Rhodes  30:55

Oh, absolutely not. But it doesn’t have to take you five years to make a baby step. Be that right, if you don’t

Matt Elders  31:00

Oh, no, not at all. No.

Karan Rhodes  31:03

Get all the data information, get your key stakeholders perspectives, and then you make an informed decision about where to take that baby step.

Matt Elders  31:11

Very true. Yeah.

Karan Rhodes  31:12

Well, Matt, it has been absolutely tremendous having you on the podcast, we thank you for your insights and the gift of your time, we will have a lot of information about you your bio cordial all in our show notes. But I always love to give guests a little bit of airtime just to share where the listeners can find you and cordial. If they want to learn more.

Matt Elders  31:34

Sure, I mean, the easiest place is our website. Right? www.cordial.com. Lots of information there. And again, for those of you who are at all, sort of if you’re in the market, you’d see us at all of the big trade shows, etc. And sort of all over LinkedIn as the business continues to grow.

Karan Rhodes  31:56

You are and I noticed that especially since the new year coming on following you all, but definitely follow them and check them out at their next big trade show. You all know who you are out there. And you know what shows they’re at. So definitely stop by and say hello to the Cordial team next time you’re there. Well, thanks again, Matt, for coming on the show. And we really appreciate you giving, as I said, the insights that you gave today.

Matt Elders  32:22

My pleasure, Karan wonderful to be part of the program.

Karan Rhodes  32:24

Oh, absolutely. And thank you to listeners for the gift of your time as well. Because we know there are literally millions of other podcasts you could be listening to. And we do not take your patronage lightly. So we ask that you continue to join us every week. Be sure to like and subscribe if you haven’t already. And the only thing that we ask is that you share with just one friend, because by doing so together, we can all learn how to better lead at the top of our game. Sorry, got tongue tied, fellas. And ladies, thanks so much. And we will see you next week. Take care.

Matt Elders  32:58

Thanks, Karan.

Karan Rhodes  32:59

Thank you.

Matt Elders  33:00

Bye bye.

Karan Rhodes  33:04

And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.