Episode 92 | The Technology Engine Behind Brand Loyalty Programs with Len Covello

Len Covello  00:03

It’s an interesting thing when you’re trying to innovate or trying to be different, is you’ve got a task not only to convince someone to use you as an organization, but convince them of the technology or the solution, that it’s going to be something that’ll be ubiquitous at some point. So nobody wants to be first. It’s, you know, the old adage, no one got fired for hiring, for hiring IBM or for hiring Microsoft. So it’s always difficult, because we were fortunate to be in front of some of the biggest companies in the world, which was just an incredible opportunity for us.

Voiceover  00:03

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  01:07

Hello, my superstars. This is Karan, and welcome to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast. We are just super pleased to have on today’s show as part of Earth’s Chief Technology Officer series, Len Covello, who is the Chief Technology Officer at Engage People. Now, Engage People is a company’s whose mission is to integrate loyalty into every consumer transaction. And I know you’re done to know. What in the heck does that mean? Well, when I tell you they are trailblazers in this area. They truly, truly are, and we’re going to give Len a chance to really explain to us what that means and the impact that they’re making in the world of business. But Len oversees the long term technology vision of the company, and he’s responsible for driving continued innovation, both to help delight their customers and while also helping the company to exceed their business goals. And he definitely has a passion about web based application development across a variety of businesses. He loves the user experience and Process automation. So believe it or not, he is not all nerdy. He is very multi dimensional, and he brings a ton to the table. So welcome Len to the podcast.

Len Covello  02:30

Thanks, Karen. It’s a pleasure to be here, looking forward to this.

Karan Rhodes  02:33

Oh, same here, same here. Well, we’re so interested in hearing your perspective as a chief technology officer, and that’s a big weight on your shoulders, I’m sure, especially these days, when technology changes at the nanosecond. But before we dive deep into that, we’d love to know a little bit about you personally, just to break the ice a bit. So just as far, as much as you feel comfortable, can you give us just a sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Len Covello  03:00

Sure. So, married with three boys. So I’ve got, I used to call them young boys, but they’re getting older, so kind of a blur. The day starts in the morning, you know, work happens, and then the three of them are just pretty incredible individuals, and they’re so unique. So, you know, I got a lot of pleasure my wife and I from, you know, being spectators and watching them turn into fine young men. So, so, you know, a big thing for me is just to be a part of their life. You know, they all have their own passions. It’s sports, it’s music, it’s school and academics. So that’s really what keeps me excited, is the ability to spend time with my family. And I learned that early on, from from one of my mentors, is to be present. So as much as we work really hard, we always use the phrase, work hard, play hard, and that’s an incredible thing to do,

Karan Rhodes  03:42

Absolutely well. It sounds like they’re multi dimensional as well, and it probably keeps your household hopping and entertained, I’m sure, with all of their extracurricular activities so Well, it sounds like you have a fantastic family, and congratulations on three fabulous boys.

Len Covello  03:59

Oh, thank you.

Karan Rhodes  04:00

Well, thank you for sharing that. Let’s go ahead and start out, if you don’t mind, Len, can you share a bit about your journey in selecting the field of technology and how you rose to be the Chief Technology Officer of engage people.

Len Covello  04:15

It kind of happened. It’s one of those things where, when you’re forward looking, you kind of overthink what you can accomplish in a short amount of time, and under your vantage point of where you’ll be in 15 years, you really can’t see that far ahead. So, you know, I started as a techie. I loved building things, you know, web based applications, online. The Internet was a lot more I’ll call it immature back in the day. So we were able to do a lot of fun things, and you cringe when you look back at them, but that really excited me. So as I started building solutions, I started on my own, just doing some work for individuals, and then doing a lot of things just out of fun. And that was really a passion, and it slowly morphed into turning into a business where we first started just building applications for professional services came into the loyalty industry by accident. We were introduced to a company that was in loyalty. They ran kind of the legacy program. So, you know, before you and I, Karen, there was that catalog that came out, and it had three Sony TVs that you could pick at the end of the year from your points, and that was their business. So we looked at that, and it was such an incredible convergence of what you could do with technology and where that industry could go. So we started building first solutions for that organization. They loved what we were doing. They brought us to the table. So they had a lot of foresight to bring us to the table with their clients. And then at some point, we merged the companies together. So we took that legacy loyalty company, merged it in. So the founder there joined engage as well, and we turned into engage people, and ever since then, we’ve just been building solutions. So, you know, my role as the chief technology officer was really initially, just driving technology, and then I learned a lot on the go, always transparent with everyone, and the amazing people who are way brighter than I ever was, that are in the organization today, and I’m still learning. So it’s been a great journey, and I love the fact that I still learn every day.

Karan Rhodes  06:03

I know that is wonderful. So on a side note, my listeners know my last major role before founding this firm was working 14 years at Microsoft. So while I’m not in the technology field, I was supporting, you know, through HR leadership development, but we were almost forced to be power users of technology. And I think about when we first joined, what the technology was like compared to what it is today. It is just like light years different, right from the late 1900s early 2000s so that’s telling my age. You know,

Len Covello  06:39

it’s so much fun though to and it’s a great thing myself and kind of my right hand man, the VP of technology and innovation here, he has the same passion. So we still kept some of the old tech, and fortunate enough to go buy some of the old stuff now. So, you know, I first started learning about computers on a VIC 20 that my dad bought for me. So to show people a cassette that you actually coded on and you pressed play for the application to run. It’s amazing. It’s the patience we had back then. And now we sit here and we look at things that don’t happen quick enough, and it’s just just amazing how far we’ve come in those 20 years.

Karan Rhodes  07:12

Don’t you remember when we were having about dial up, you know, internet? Oh, and today, we can’t wait. You know, we need 20 gig speed. You know,

Len Covello  07:26

It’s so crazy, it is.

Karan Rhodes  07:28

Well, let’s talk a little bit more about the whole loyalty space, because the story is very interesting, especially in the fact that there was, like, one major client that you were working and it doesn’t sound like, please correct me if I’m wrong. It doesn’t sound like there was an established niche industry for loyalty programs at the time. Were you ever concerned about companies not wanting what you all developed because they had a hard time understanding that they had a need for it? Or how did you fill out whether this was really going to be a viable long term business or not?

Len Covello  08:05

Yeah. So it’s an interesting thing when, when you’re trying to innovate or trying to be different, is you’ve got a task not only to convince someone to use you as an organization, but convince them of the technology or the solution, that it’s going to be something that’ll be ubiquitous at some point. So nobody wants to be first. It’s, you know, the old adage, no one got fired for hiring, for hiring IBM or for hiring Microsoft. So so it was difficult, because we were fortunate to be in front of some of the biggest companies in the world, which was just an incredible opportunity for us, um, but we had to also have partners that were willing to take those chances again. They were coming from a space and loyalty where it was just systematic. These are how we run things. This is how we do stuff. And then we had to show them, right? So there was a big investment from our part. There was also, you know, being entrepreneurial to start the organization is, you know, we weren’t always able to get the value that we were bringing to the table from our cart, from our clients, but it was a risk we wanted to take, and we really believed in what we were doing. So definitely a difficult journey. It’s very different. Now. We’re fortunate to have some very large logos on our website and able to walk into a room with so they kind of validate what we’ve are as an organization and what we’ve built. So that piece is kind of gone, but yeah, there’s definitely early on where you’re just not sure if you know, you may think it’s the greatest thing in the world, but we’ve all seen it. You know, some of the best solutions never make it, and some not so great ones actually tend to to catch on. So

Karan Rhodes  09:32

Yeah,

Len Covello  09:33

It’s definitely a risk.

Karan Rhodes  09:34

Definitely sounds like it. If you don’t mind me asking, how big is your technical team now?

Len Covello  09:41

So technical team here at the organization is about 35 to 40 people. We do flex up and down just based on demand, so we were larger at one point. So we definitely did quite a bit of growing up as an organization. It’s one of the things I learned a lot about, was more people isn’t necessarily better.

Karan Rhodes  09:59

Yeah

Len Covello  09:59

1. There’s at some point you want to get to this. I’ll call it this perfect state where you’re humming along and you’re able to produce the right amount of technology and and for us as an organization, it’s when we productized our offerings. So we started as professional service, and we kind of walked in and said, We can do anything and everything. And that’s kind of part of the stories that, you know, made being the leader here. Difficult was, you know, having to say no sometimes, and it was the discipline to sit back. And once we got to a place where we productized our offerings and we bring those to the table, and we felt confident enough to really stand behind what we bring to the table, it allowed us to get to a size team there really has them humming, and they work incredibly well together. And I would tell anyone that strength of this organization is the people. So

Karan Rhodes  10:44

Oh. People make it, don’t they?

Len Covello  10:46

100%

Karan Rhodes  10:47

And so I’m curious, how do you or what approach do you use to really coach and motivate your team, especially since technology changes so fast, and customers needs and requests probably changed very fast. How do you think about optimizing your team for both the needs of engaged people now and thinking about how you’re going to handle growth in the future?

Len Covello  11:13

So I think a big part of my job, or what I’ve learned, and it took some time, was to understand, you know, the biggest role I can play is actually to unblock people and to enable people. If I want to believe that I was, I won’t say smarter, but I was definitely super engaged as a young individual, and I was on top of the latest trends, then I’ve got to believe that about our team as well. So, you know, we’ve got some architects that are just incredible thinkers and the art of what’s possible. Just, you know, the next every morning, they wake up and they’ve researched something new, and there’s something great, and then there are people that have a very operational mindset and understand the practicality of implementing things. So I think, as an organization and a role as a leader is to help facilitate that dialog and those conversations, and then find that middle ground where you can efficiently, still develop your products and innovate your products, and give people that sandbox environment to try new things, but also be true to the fact that you’re still running a business, and you still have clients that are looking for a service, and they’re looking for stability. So you know, big part is really as a leader, in my opinion, is enabling great people to do great things.

Karan Rhodes  12:22

No, I love that. Definitely love that. And at the company, I know some of the strategies that you all leverage, I don’t know if they were business strategy or tech strategies, but you started out with one mindset, but as you all became, I guess, more solidified as a company and grew over time. Some of your mindsets had to shift a bit. Can you share, like an example of things that you had to consider as a chief technology officer that kind of changed over time?

Len Covello  12:52

Sure. So as you I think everyone sees this. In our world today, there’s a lot more demand on, I won’t say rigidity, but compliance and security, and for understandable reasons, right? Nobody wants to have that risk anymore. Most organizations are risk averse, and you know, we’ve seen a number of breaches, a number of situations where, you know, we haven’t done right by the customer, and we haven’t done enough to protect their information. So I think for us as an organization, we were willing to go really fast early on, and we’re willing to change things and willing to do things to satisfy client demands and client needs. And we’d sit in a room on a whiteboard, and they call it the blue sky, thinking, and, you know, we’d get back and we’d say, Okay, everyone shift of thinking we’re going to go this way and we’re going to go that way. And just because that’s something that drives certain types of individuals. I know it drives me. I love looking at those types of things, and the ability to pivot actually a distraction for certain people and for a lot of people on the team. So big maturity for us as an organization was shifting from being able to do everything to for everyone to these are the things we want to be amazed at, and we want to be the leaders of these specific things, and we want to be the best at these specific things, and they’re hard things, so they’re still exciting to do, but that’s our focus. And like I mentioned earlier, there’s there’s, you know, this nervousness to saying no to people when you’re in a business, but we mature to that level, and it’s great for us to be able to do that, because I know it brings a lot of, I won’t say comfort, but it brings a lot to the balance of the team to know they can stay focused on task.

Karan Rhodes  14:25

No, absolutely, absolutely. And you know what I just realized when I didn’t give you a chance to go deep onto what Engaged People does and how it it really takes Lily programs to the next level. So let’s give it a little air time to that, because I want to our listeners to really understand how you all have become thought leaders in this space. So would you mind sharing just a bit more about you all’s business and what you do?

Len Covello  14:52

Absolutely so at the heart of what we do is, you know, we’re the engine behind loyalty programs, or we’re a white label solution provider. And if you pull a credit card out of your wallet today, chances are one of those logos could very well be a client of ours, but we run the programs in the background, so technology to do that. But a big focus and a lot of growth for us was understanding that a lot of loyalty was originally driven by the redemption. So a lot of people were driven by that vacation the proverbial toaster we still joke about today. It was that redemption item, and in our industry, a lot of people, it was a race to the bottom. It was who could find that faster, cheaper, and we knew that at some point that wasn’t going to be the case anymore, because we’ve got companies like Amazon, we’ve got companies like Best Buy, you’ve got Wayfair, which they’re just incredible at what they do, and they’re just able to get it’s impossible to provide personalization for care in the way an Amazon can do it. They just know so much about you, and they have so much breadth and offering. And our thought was, at some point is we’ve got this currency, and it’s ubiquitous. It’s available everywhere. It’s backed by major organizations. So I don’t know if a lot of people know this, but every time a hotel, an airline, a bank gives you points, they’re funding that, so there’s a bank account with dollars associated with that, so they want you to use those points is they want you to spend that currency, because that’s really what drives loyalty. And we saw that, and we saw this currency that was available and and you know in your wallet that that’s got value. So one of our products that we brought to market, we call it access, plus, was really building a network for loyalty currency. So we enable your ability to pay with points today at some of the biggest retailers in the world, whether it’s in store or online, it could be, you know, filling up your car with gas, which we all know has gotten increasingly expensive over the years. You’re telling me, yeah, but that’s that’s been a big thing we believed in, and we always saw that at some point, when we talked earlier on about our mission is that’s a loyalty transaction for us. That’s a loyalty experience for you as a customer. And we wanted to power that. It wasn’t, you know, Karen earns some points, and then she gets a gift card, puts it in her wallet, and then, you know, a month later, maybe you show up to Best Buy, or, you know, you show up to Sephora and you purchase something, and you’re not really creating the relationship back to the program that issued that for you. So imagine, you know, walking into, you know, any retailer you like, and you tap that card, or you insert that card and it says, Do you want to use your loyalty points? And that brings that connection back. And you say, you know, I was able to make this purchase based on the fact that I have a loyalty relationship with an organization, and that’s what we power. So that’s engaged in the background, building out that network. So you all provide that platform that runs all this in the background, correct? So we connect, I think our head of marketing, he summed it up best is we’re the horizontal line in the H, so we connect the loyalty banks, the loyalty currency, with the retailers, and enable that transaction.

Karan Rhodes  17:48

So do I have you to thank Lynn for me spending a lot of my credit card by getting cash back?

Len Covello  17:54

So we definitely power some of that as well. So the calculation of you doing that as well, and then when you take those points or that cash back and you use it for something, we may be guilty of that as well. So I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing for you, Karan.

Karan Rhodes  18:06

I don’t know if you ask my husband, it might be a bad thing is a good thing for me, but you know.

Len Covello  18:12

Well, keep using it. We’re encouraging you.

Karan Rhodes  18:15

Oh, that is too funny. Well, I know you’ve you know, as you mentioned, you’ve been around technology almost your entire life. I think I read in your bio that you started as early as 18. It might have been a little bit even before that. So you’ve seen the industry grow, evolve and change, and you started from kind of a worker Be yourself, all the way up through now being a Chief Technology Officer. So what advice would you give to fellow technology colleagues who someday dream of being a CTO career advice would you give?

Len Covello  18:47

There’s so many lessons to be learned. I think the big thing is, is be a student, be open to feedback. You’re going to learn a lot from people. And you know, I learned a lot I had, I wouldn’t know if it was stubbornness or whatnot, but the minute I was able to to be humble and to sit back and watch people and learn from those people, and acknowledge that, I think I grew so much. And I’ve been fortunate to have some amazing people along the way that, you know, just taught me these these little lessons that when you piece them together, they help you grow. Because, you know, we’re all built differently. And some of the brightest technologists in the world. Some people that just build incredible things or design and develop amazing things aren’t necessarily cut out, nor do they want to be leaders in certain areas, or do they want to run organizations. So it’s, you know, understanding what you’re capable of, understanding what you want to do, if it’s a passion, you know, the old adage, never work a day in your life, if possible. So love what you do, but I think growing in technology, really, to sum it back to your question, is to always be learning, because it’s an industry that changes every day. You know, much as a lot of people will cringe in my role is, is, you know, things like payment card, the standards that we have to go by in the security PCI, 4.0 it’s like. Some people, it doesn’t excite everybody, and it’s something you have to do. So you can’t shy away from the hard things, as well as there’s some great books out there to teach you about that. So I would say, just be learning, just be absorbing, and just follow along and continue to grow. And it’s not as difficult as you think. You can you can see yourself in their shoes.

Karan Rhodes  20:18

Well, it may not be as difficult, but you know, I do know, like I said, enough to be a little dangerous, but I do know that being a chief technology officer at maybe a small startup is a lot different from being a chief technology officer at an enterprise level firm. You know, there’s a lot of especially a global or multinational one, you know, there’s a lot of dimensions, added dimensions to look at, but to your point to always be learning, or, you know, be curious about what’s going on in your industry, in the market, what new solutions are out there is always very important. Now, I would be remiss Lynn, if I did not ask you your perspectives on how you think AI is going to impact the loyalty industry and what you all do. How are you thinking about that as a chief technology officer? Or are you?

Len Covello  21:10

Oh, we definitely are. It’s It’s um, something that everyone asks. So in our space, personalization has been a big thing. And I think what we’re seeing a lot with the generative AI is something that could be pretty cool for a customer. Is that true personalization? And if you think about loyalty, it’s that exchange of information. You know, these programs started because they, one wanted you to frequent their location, but they also wanted, you know, data on you. So that’s when those first cards got introduced. It was to swipe that card, and it was to know, you know, if Karan buys these things at these specific dates, we know we can tell her product X or product y. So there’s so much data available, and I’m not ignoring but I think there’s tangible uses to AI around customer service and things of that nature and efficiencies. But if I want to get exciting about this, it’s really I have so much data, so these models are loaded with so much information, and then you’ve got it, not just specifically on an individual, but across different segments, across a loyalty program. So where I think this will get exciting is the communication, the offers, and the messaging that you’ll start to see coming up will be one to one, and it’ll be as if you had your own personal individual on the other side that really is interacting with you and bringing these offers to you. So I really think when a customer logs in, when they interact, they’re going to see that perfect personal experience for them one day. And it won’t just be a Replace name, hi Lynn or Hi Karen. Here’s your offer, but it’s really going to be personalized for you and break down to the imagery. So I think we’ll get there. It’ll be pretty exciting to get there as well.

Karan Rhodes  22:42

I think so too. It sounds really exciting. And you may not know the answer to this, and it’s fine if you don’t, but I’m just curious, do you think you like your team? Are ever your team members are ever nervous or unsure about Gen AI taking away or reducing or changing their roles? I would imagine there’s always still a human element into this, at least for now, for the short term. But do you think they have any nervousness around that, or have they shared anything with you?

Len Covello  23:09

I think it’s a natural thing when people see you know this type of stuff come in, and it’s no different than the jobs that’ll exist 15 years from now, 10 years from now may not even exist. We may not even know about. So no, I always try to encourage people to think there’s as much as that engine can do in pump up. It’s still a lot of work that is not something you typically want to do. Probably that’s what we’ve trained these machines to do. So there’s more exciting things to be done, and there’s, you know, probably different ways to push the envelope. So I would say there’s definitely some nervousness out there, but I think our organization and the type of individuals we have are excited about this type of stuff and really excited about how they can put it to use.

Karan Rhodes  23:49

That sounds great. Wow. Len, you know, I did research about three or four years ago now about high performers across the globe, like what differentiated them and what set them apart from, you know, the rest of the population. And what came out of that research was that there were certain tactics and actions that are always included in any leadership initiative that successful leaders did, and all of them are equally as important. But one of the things we love to do on the podcast is ask our guests, you know which of the seven buckets that we talk wrote about really resonated with you, and you were so kind to share that leading with intellectual horsepower kind of resonated and for my new audience, listeners out there, if you’re not sure, leading with intellectual horsepower is all about using your area of expertise to what I call peak around corners to spot trends and connect dots that others don’t see. And you bring that knowledge back to whatever organization you’re looking at, and you discover maybe opportunities that others miss. And you kind of leverage that in your day to day work. So curious ones want to know, Len, why did leading with intellectual horsepower really resonate with you?

Len Covello  25:03

I think that’s the one that hits the nail on the head for how I work, and I think how this organization was built. And it was that opportunity we, you know, we talked about our Access Plus product to pay with points it was being in meetings with organizations being, know, I’m going to date myself. And it sounds weird, but, you know, we sat at tables with companies like Toys R Us and Sears, who are no longer with us.

Karan Rhodes  25:24

I know!

Len Covello  25:26

We were understanding their e commerce goals and what they were trying to achieve, and we connected those dots to that loyalty currency being used to check out. And, you know, a lot of people didn’t realize this, but there, you know, it’s $200 billion worth of points issued each year in North America. And you thought, Wow, this, this is a piece of the wallet that these people don’t have access to, and we were able to connect the dots, you know, working with companies like Visa and MasterCard, to how we could make that happen. And that’s how we’ve grown all our products is, you know, again, being sometimes staying quiet in a room and listening and getting everybody’s feedback and challenges they have. And that’s just been something that that I’ve always thought was a great way to lead and a great way to to, you know, do well, in my role was to sit back to listen, and, like you said, peek around the corner and understand, you know, if I can solve this problem and to connect the dots on how to solve that problem, it would help this organization, and for us, we’ve been very fortunate that that’s been the case.

Karan Rhodes  26:23

That is fantastic. And I’m also curious, Lynn, for you personally, what does it take for you to lead at the top of your game? What has to be some of the conditions, or how do you take care of yourself or take care of your people? Give us one or two insights on what it takes for you to be able to lead at the top of your game.

Len Covello  26:42

For me specifically, it’s being in a very measured mindset. So we tend to call it noise. It’s the word that gets thrown around a lot, but it’s eliminating the noise and that ability to be focused. I love hard work, I love challenges. Don’t get stressed about those types of things. So if there’s a looming deadline, and, you know, we know that there’s a way to get it done, or we’re not 100% sure, is, I love those things, is what I really hate dealing with, and it’s part of any leadership role, is, I’ll call it the noise. So you know, if there’s personnel conflicts or people are having challenges, is, you want to clear those up as you is, you kind of want to have that that clean room, that that clean bed, so that your focus can be there, and you don’t have clutter around. So I think for me to be at the top of my game, it’s to feel good. So, you know, take care of yourself, physically and mentally. And then you walk in and you’re able to attack things, wow. And you’re able to do that with three boys that around. I would be remiss if I didn’t say my wife is the huge force behind all of this. So I’ve been super fortunate, and I’m incredibly lucky that that everything at home runs extremely well and great people, and my wife is the perfect complimentary individual to me, so she’s the bubbly, happy, smiley, glass, half full person, and that’s what I need to have, that mindset. And again, I would give all the kudos there, because that enables me to do what I do well.

Karan Rhodes  28:11

Sunds like you have a heck of a partner there. Len, definitely, definitely. Now we’re going to have a lot more information about you and Engage People in the show notes, but I always love to give air time to our guests to let the listeners know where to find either more about you and or the company. So where can they find you?

Len Covello  28:31

So best place to learn more about us is LinkedIn. You can find myself there. So @lencovello, I’m online on LinkedIn, and that’s probably the number one social channel I use as far as communicating, and I I encourage people reach out, send a question in, if you’ve got anything, if you’re not sure, just send it. Love to have those conversations. And then our organization is there as well. So Engage People is on LinkedIn. We’re on X as well, but a lot of our social media happens on LinkedIn. And then you can always visit our website at engagepeople.com and we’ve got some forms there and some information. And we love to chat. We get just as excited about, not necessarily opportunities, but conversations with people as we do about implementing things. So feel free to reach out.

Karan Rhodes  29:10

Well, thank you so much, Lynn, for the gift of your time. Sorry that that’s all the time we have for today. I think we could have talked about another hour on this, but there were some, definitely some fantastic insights. I give you all kudos for the great things that engage people is doing right now in this loyalty space, and we’ll definitely be following you.

Len Covello  29:30

I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was, it was a great conversation. LOVE having these chats. Thank you.

Karan Rhodes  29:34

Oh. Thank you so much. And listeners, thank you too for the gift of your time. We know there, there are many other podcasts out there that you could be listening to, but we thank you for sticking with us every single week, and all we ask is that you please like or subscribe to the podcast and share with just one friend, because by doing so, that will enable others to also help to lead at the top of their game. Thank you. Again and see you next week, And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.