Episode 93 | Transforming for Scale Without Losing Your Mind with Zach Evans

Zach Evans  00:00

Technology, and people that live in the technology space, right? We, we kind of get our energy from how fast things are always changing, right? And then, you know, 18 months ago, this little thing arrived on the scene called Chat GPT, and it’s like we all went into this, you know, this hyperdrive type mentality, just things changing, you know, every minute, every day kind of thing. And so even for technologists, the rapid pace of change has left us all kind of panting a little bit.

Voiceover  00:04

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes

Karan Rhodes  00:37

Welcome back to the podcast, everyone, and thanks for joining another episode designed to help you better lead at the top of your game. Now, as you know, for season three each month, we’re featuring leaders who have fascinating roles in a particular profession or industry, and today’s episode is part of our special series featuring chief technology officers and VP level leaders who lead expansive technology teams, and now enjoy the show. Hey there superstars. Welcome back to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast we are extremely pleased to have on today’s show Zach Evans, who’s the Chief Technology Officer of Xsolis. Xsolis is an AI driven health technology company whose differentiator is human centered approach, which is something is definitely needed in the healthcare industry and technology, if I do say so myself, but we’re going to talk to Zach about that in just a minute. Now, Zach is responsible for using Xsolis proprietary real time predictive analytics and their tech platform to support the business operations of their clients. So welcome to the podcast Zach!

Zach Evans  01:51

Thank you for having me, Karan. I’m really looking forward to this and really appreciate the opportunity to spend some time with you and your listeners.

Karan Rhodes  01:57

Oh, thank you so much. I cannot wait to dive into some of your perspectives in the health tech industry, as well as you know you and your day to day role. But before we dive into that great insights and information, we’d love to hear just a little bit about you. So just for as much as you feel comfortable, can you give us a little sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Zach Evans  02:21

Yes, certainly. Karan, so I live just south of Nashville, Tennessee, which is, you know, over the last several years, has become a little bit of an IT city around the country. We have a lot of people moving here. It’s a great, vibrant city to be a part of. It’s also kind of a healthcare Mecca, which makes it kind of fun to to live here. But I’m raising, along with my wife, actually four kids ranging in age from our daughters 13, then we have three sons that are 1517, and 19. And so, you know, my life outside of work is filled with a lot of energy, a lot of sleepovers and carpools and sports and all the fun things that could fill those fill those hours. So it’s just, you know, I feel very fortunate to do what I get to do every day when I come to office, but my most important job is being a dad and a husband every day, and they’re the reason why I get up in the morning. So, yeah, that’s a little bit more about me.

Karan Rhodes  03:09

Oh, that is wonderful. Sounds like you have a fantastic family, and what an age of ranges. I mean a range of ages, because they’re all like kind of different points and being growing to be young adults, and you’re going through those teenage years, which is so exciting. Just my husband, and I just became empty nesters. So we’re getting adjusted to that, but you’re not far away from that.

Zach Evans  03:15

We’ve got a couple more years before we get there, we’re already starting to kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel a little bit. We dearly love having kids at home. Our oldest is just finished his freshman year of college, and he’s home for that first summer. And it is one of those things like, Look, Mom and Dad are still here. Like, you know, say hi to us. Every once in a while, ships passing in the night, kind of thing. But those ages are fun a lot more independent they which is both a blessing and a Curtis, right, that they need us a little bit less, but the things they bring to us are typically a little bit harder to deal with. I’m sure usually, you know, they’re bigger things that we get to deal with with our kids now,

Karan Rhodes  04:16

Absolutely, absolutely, well, I will say there’s light at the end of the tunnel. So, and they are still and will always be a part of your lives.

Zach Evans  04:26

Absolutely.

Karan Rhodes  04:27

You know, we’re enjoying it, but we talk to them every day. They you know, one is literally eight minutes down the road. So,

Zach Evans  04:34

Oh, that’s a blessing. Yeah, that’s great. Well, we hope that, we hope that they all live close, not with us, but close, and everything will be good.

Karan Rhodes  04:41

It’ll be perfect, yeah. Well, thank you so much for your kind share. We appreciate that. All right, Mr. Zach, well, let’s start out by you sharing with our listeners a little bit of how you got into the technology function through your career. How did your career start out and how did you get to excellence today?

Zach Evans  05:02

Yeah, yeah. So I kind of came to technology from a little bit more of a non traditional route. I came from really, kind of the business side very early in my career, in the early 2000s kind of in the middle of the.com bubble. I was working for a company as about 100 100 plus year old company, and they said, Hey, you’re just out of college. You probably know how to do all of this e commerce stuff. We want to build an online presence. And so that was really my first exposure to technology. I had to start working with engineers and start figuring out how to sell things online. And it was a ton of fun, but I came to it from the business side of the conversation, rather than from the true kind of engineering, technical side, but really pro arcane, it’s a little bit of both, right? The good news is, because I’m one of the biggest challenges facing technology leaders is their ability to really understand business drivers and then communicate value back to non technical individuals. Well, since that’s kind of the area I came from that’s always been a little more natural to me. But the reality is, when you’re dealing with engineers, engineers are really good at kind of sniffing out folks that don’t necessarily know what they’re talking about, right? And so I spent, you know, early in my career, I’d spent a lot of time kind of building that credibility of, yeah, I know I wasn’t a computer science major or Computer Engineering major or something like that, but I really understand technology, and I can go really deep with engineers into architectural considerations and other things like that. So it’s both a blessing and a and a challenge to overcome, yeah, but so that was really my first entree into technology, again, being in Nashville and kind of being this healthcare capital, I knew that I wanted to try to get into the healthcare industry at some point, and kind of made that transition with a couple startup companies, real small, like pre revenue type startup companies, and helped build out a couple technology platforms. We actually built a SAS technology platform in 2005 before SAS was even a thing, which was a lot of fun to build that out is some software that was focused on nurses and helping to nurses manage their kind of career paths, which was a really interesting space I took a tour about eight years through this little company called HCA healthcare, which is a fortune 100 you know, $50 billion company based here in Nashville, 300,000 employees. You know, that really large healthcare provider. One of the fun facts that HCA always like to talk about was more babies are delivered in their hospitals every year than on the entire continent of Australia. So…

Karan Rhodes  07:41

Oh wow!

Zach Evans  07:41

Yea. The thing that I learned, I learned a ton at my time at HCA, but the biggest thing was about how you operate at scale, because that’s what their business model is. And then I came to Xsolis. It was, it was an interesting journey. I had known one of the co founders for a couple years, and they actually came and pitched me as a person, as a prospective client, while I was at HCA, and just through conversations, I was starting to feel that the itch maybe to get back to something a little bit smaller, and this really interesting company named Exelis, popped up on my radar screen. They were looking for a chief technology officer, and and I decided to to kind of step back into kind of that small and mid sized business space, kind of that a company that was ready to scale rapidly as a business operations my first year with the company, I guess we had just passed the five year mark, and we implemented more clients in that year than we had in the previous five years combined, and the growth has just kind of continued from there. So I’ve been the CTO with excellence now for a little more than six years. I love coming to work every day. It’s a ton of fun. It’s an important area of the healthcare market that we live in that is a lot of people outside of the industry don’t really have a lot of visibility into in terms of what we do, but it’s a great thing to be able to take this technology and apply it to these real world problems and really help hospitals and insurance companies just much better exist in a frictionless marketplace. Yeah,

Karan Rhodes  09:15

you know, I had a chance to look up Xsolis as well, and you all are doing fantastic. You know, work, in my opinion, Karen’s humble opinion. But I’m sure there are a ton of challenges these days. As fast as technology is advancing, you know, now Gen AI is on everybody’s and everybody’s vocabulary, and they’re trying to be virtually, learn more about that. And just you know, managing teams, tech teams can be very complex, and so I’m just curious, what is your approach to leading, just your overall high level approach to leading technical teams and being in creating an effective, high performing technical teams.

Zach Evans  10:00

Yeah, it’s, I mean, technology, and people that live in the technology space, right? We, we kind of get our energy from how fast things are always changing, right? And then, you know, 18 months ago, this little thing arrived on the scene called Chat GPT, and it’s like we all went into this, you this hyperdrive type mentality, just things changing, you know, every minute, every day kind of thing. And so even for technologists, the rapid pace of change has left us all kind of panting a little bit, right? It’s been even more interesting to what we’ve seen before. I think for for engineers, you know, I think it certainly extends, extends to non technical people as well, but for engineers that their very nature are problem solvers. It’s why they’re drawn to technical disciplines. They like wrestling with things. But the reason why they like solving problems is because they like solving problems for other people, even your most kind of the introverted, right, the Hollywood stereotype engineer that sits in a dark room drinking Mountain Dew and eating Doritos all day.

Karan Rhodes  11:04

Right.

Zach Evans  11:05

What gets them up every day and what makes their fingers fly across their keyboard is that they’re trying to solve real problems for real people, and so when you’re trying to lead a team of high performing engineers, I think it’s critical to start really from a place of empathy. It’s to really see and value the engineers for not only the gifts that they have and what they can do for your business or for your company, but to really get to their heart, which is their problem solvers. And they get very frustrated when they can’t solve a problem, when they’re blocked by something. They get really frustrated when they missed the mark. They thought they solved the problem, and then it turns out that they can’t, or that they didn’t. And so as a leader, you have to bring a tremendous amount of empathy to meet those engineers where they are and help every day just keep them connected, or reconnect them to the mission and to the problems that they’re trying to solve, and that’s the best way I know, to really keep them engaged and just really, I mean, just doing the amazing work that they’re capable of doing, because at their heart, they’re problem solvers

Karan Rhodes  12:16

The problem, and they love to do it. I know, I don’t know if you knew, but I worked almost 14 years at Microsoft, but it was in the HR function.

Zach Evans  12:24

Yes,

Karan Rhodes  12:24

But you know, when you’re in technology, you know you have to be a superpower user and stay on top of the industry No matter your job role. And one of the things that used to always be interesting, an interesting dynamic, is when, and I don’t know if this happens at Xsolis, but when the sales teams go and hear requests from the customers, and then they bring it back to the text, and the engineers of hey, you know they want this kind of customization, or these features added, or what have you, there’s an interesting tension between what the customers desire and what the text can produce in light of your longer term plan on how you’re scaling your technology. So I don’t know if it was just us we experienced it, but is that something that excellence experiences as well? And how do you help them manage that you know, still be friends with the sales team?

Zach Evans  13:20

Absolutely no. I wish it was unique to Microsoft, right, and that Microsoft would be the only company that has has that challenge right at the I think one of the most difficult conversations to have inside any organization is when you have to say no to something, right? Because you genuinely want to be able to say yes to things. But one of the things that I always, one of the mantras I talk to my teams about all the time is like, look like at some point we have to get to kind of a some semblance of prioritization, and because we have, you know, there’s always constraints. I don’t care if you’re, if you’re, you know, company the size of excellence, or company the size of Microsoft, you never have enough of everything to do all the things you want to do. There’s always constraints. And as soon as you introduce constraints, it means you have to talk about prioritization. And one of the hardest lessons to learn is that if everything’s a high priority, then in reality, nothing’s a priority. So our ability to, or the need to to say no from time to time, or, perhaps more importantly, you’re not saying no, you’re just saying Not right now, right? It’s not q2 it’s q3 or q4 maybe it’s next year. And then to have the hard conversations when something does actually become a no, my viewpoint is because I, because I’ve been a customer on the other side of the aisle, right, right now. I’m a vendor. I’ve been a customer before. I would rather candidly, I’d rather have a vendor tell me, look, that’s just not on our roadmap. And here’s why, right?

Karan Rhodes  14:59

Right.

Zach Evans  15:00

And we understand that this may be important to you, but here’s why it’s not. I’d much rather have a vendor actually tell me no and explain the why. Then keep streaming along.

Karan Rhodes  15:10

Oh my god, frustrating.

Zach Evans  15:12

It’s so frustrating. Yes, yes. And you know, we think we’re actually providing better service because we’re not actually saying no, but really what you’re doing is you’re frustrating your customers because they don’t understand why you’re making the decisions you’re making. Yeah, and that’s a hard lesson to learn.

Karan Rhodes  15:29

It is a hard lesson to learn. It absolutely is. And I am one of those nerdies. I do admit that when they’re different technologies that we use in our firm, if there is a feature or we’d love to see we do submit it for consideration, one of those probably people that they want to throw tomatoes at or shoot our faces on a dartboard. But you know, we try to contribute to how we actually use but I know how that information is needed, whether you’re able to address it or not, that you get that feedback so it can be incorporated into overall planning.

Zach Evans  16:02

So absolutely right. I mean, look, it’s, I think one of the biggest mistakes companies can make is to think that all good ideas just come from inside the business. That’s right, yeah, and it’s, I mean, good ideas can come from anywhere. They do come from inside the business. They come from other areas of the organization that have nothing to do with product development, but someone has a good idea, and they absolutely come, come from, from customers and the industry at large. And yeah, it’s just yet to keep a wide lens to try to gather all those nuggets that you can

Karan Rhodes  16:35

Absolutely, absolutely well, Zach, I want to pivot a little to our listeners always love examples or case studies, or, you know, the good, bad and ugly of going through transitions, and you were so kind enough to share that that excellence used dragonfly to help it scale. And I know I’m not going to do it justice by telling the summary. So I’d love for you to give share with us the story of the decision of why you all what Dragonfly is number one, and then how did you all use that to help you scale to the success that you are having today?

Zach Evans  17:12

Absolutely. Oh, so Dragonfly is our is excellence, next generation. SAS platform that we spent it’s been probably 195% of my time. It feels like from time to time, for about the last three years or so and so, yeah, so it what we had to do as an organization. So fairly early on in my tenure with excellence, I became pretty convinced that while the value we were delivering to our clients was very real and very tangible, that we had some roadblocks in our way that were going to keep us from being able to scale. And one of those, candidly, was our technology infrastructure and architecture so we had built prior to me joining the, you know, the company was five years old by the time I got there, right? We had built a SaaS platform. And as you have with a lot of, you know, small startups, you don’t know what you don’t know. And you have good ideas, some of them turn out to be true. You have good ideas, and some of those couldn’t be more false. And so we had, we had a platform that was working to our customer, it looked like it was working and it was working, but it was relatively unsustainable. Our ability to scale the business on this technology platform was both going to be really, really difficult and take a tremendous amount of human capital investment. And it was also going to be really, really expensive. We leverage AWS for everything that we do, Amazon Web Services. And you know, when I first joined the company, we were spending, you know, 10, $12,000 a month, and it was on one of the co founders, credit cards, right? And a couple years later, it was like we had this massive AWS bill and with no end in sight. And so I became convinced that we needed to do something pretty radically different. For a while as an organization, we kind of nibbled around the edges. Could we do some small projects here and some small projects there to try to extend the life cycle of this platform, which, which we called cortex, and we, within a relatively short period of time, we realized, yeah, that just wasn’t really going to work. And so we made the decision. I mean, you know, here we were, we had, you know, several 100 hospitals live on a system. We were delivering real value. We were implementing new clients every month, and we made the decision to basically start over from scratch. So we literally, from a technology perspective, we literally rewrote our entire platform from the ground up. We didn’t bring over any code. We didn’t bring over, really, any of the tech stack. We started with a blank piece of paper that said, look, at that point the company had been around seven years or so. We said, look, we’ve learned a lot in seven years. So let’s start with a blank piece of paper and say, Let’s build what we need to build now, knowing what we know today, but also with a view out to the future. How do we avoid things like vendor lock in? How do we leverage highly scalable managed services? Where are we actually creating value with our platform? Because those are the things we really need to invest in and really own that intellectual property. And what are other areas of our platform that look these are critical functions, but there’s not really a competitive advantage here. And so we can, you know, we go buy something, or we go use a managed service to develop that portion of the application while we really focus on where we’re driving value over here.

Karan Rhodes  20:57

And you are doing this all while keeping your current version live for your clients. While, create, and supporting that while creating version 2.0, if you will, for the feature, is that correct?

Zach Evans  21:13

And no that that’s exactly right. And so

Karan Rhodes  21:16

And when did you get to sleep, Zach,

Zach Evans  21:19

not, not that much that that was, that’s, yeah, that’s part of my, part of my journey over the last couple of years, right? Well, because really, really what we did, what we had to do, Karen, was we, because of exactly what you said, we needed a we needed to pivot from a technology standpoint, to be able to better service our clients long term, and be able to provide a platform for growth. And so in a lot of respects, we really kind of created a startup within our own company. We had, and it all reported to me as the CTO, but we had, we had our legacy, our cortex platform team, and we had our new dragonfly platform team, and it had its own leadership and its own engineers and their own roadmaps, and it’s their own product owners and product managers, because we needed to unlearn some of the things that we had learned, right? To start, just to kind of start over now, right? We do that perfectly. We did not have. We stubbed our toes along the way. We have that’s part of it, right? That’s part of the journey. But, you know, late last year we launched dragonfly to the world, we brought our first clients live. Those migrations are going well, and we have some of our first net new clients that are going live on the on the new platform as well. And it’s been, it’s been a crazy journey, but it’s one that I think really positions excellence as a company just to continue to grow as rapidly as we have been.

Karan Rhodes  22:50

So if I may, Zach, I’m gonna try to ask maybe one layer deeper, pull back the layers of the onion a little bit, because that is tremendous, that whole effort I can knowing and observing these going in various tech companies. I know it’s no easy feat, so I’m just and with clients. They’re usually very nervous or hesitant or curious about such a transition. So I’m just curious how you all prepared the clients for the transition to dragonfly, and were there any hiccups along the way, or concerns or things that you all had to tackle as the implementation happened?

Zach Evans  23:34

Yeah, yeah. So it’s a really insightful question, and it’s one that we wrestled with a lot. So a little bit of history. One of the things, one of the things we had going for us is in our our legacy cortex platform, we were doing releases to our clients about every six weeks. So our clients, thankfully, were in. They were used to a regular update cadence. Okay, so let’s start there, right? And we were releasing new functionality about it every six weeks, and at times they were saying, Man, it’d be really great if you could slow down a little bit, because we’re trying to adapt exactly right? Okay, so that’s a lesson learned unto itself, right? So the good news was, is we had clients that were kind of used to that cadence, so that would that was a positive. The second thing, we made a very conscious decision that for this migration, truly from a technical perspective, we wanted it to be little to no impact on the client, basically saying, Look, you don’t really have to change anything on your side. Okay, so like all of our integrations, interfaces, customer facing, APIs, those sorts of things, if we improve them, they were behind the scenes. The client didn’t necessarily know it, but it also meant they didn’t have to re implement anything on their end.

Karan Rhodes  24:56

Right.

Zach Evans  24:57

So that was a very conscious decision that we made now, not. Not every company going down this type of journey has that luxury we did,

Karan Rhodes  25:05

That’s wonderful.

Zach Evans  25:06

but that that was hugely helpful from a change management perspective. And then what we did, especially for some of our early clients, what we called our alphas and our betas, was we started giving them kind of peaks behind the curtain almost a year before they started migrating so they could start, I don’t know, normalizing to because it was, it looks dramatically different. We streamlined a lot of workflows. We rolled out a bunch of new functionality. So there was, there is a change management exercise that’s part of it, but we wanted to give as much of a preview as possible. So let’s talk about a lesson learned there. Yeah, I mentioned stubbing your toe earlier. Yeah. Let’s talk about time when we maybe we stub a couple toes, right? The good news was those early previews proved to be really valuable. The mistake we made, the thing that I would one of the things I would do differently if I were ever to do this again, was those previews were very much at the leadership level, okay? Think kind of director manager, maybe even all up to, like a VP type level and worker bees to look at. That’s we didn’t do as much with the staff, right? And so because what we learned, and honestly, we shouldn’t have been surprised by but we were was, there was a little bit of a disconnect between how the end users were using our system and how their leaders thought they were using our system. Yes, knocked me over with a feather. We’re surprised. And so that was a lesson learned. So as we get deeper into our migrations and our new implementations, spending much, much more time with frontline staff level nurses and employees that are using the system all day, every day, that’s really helping with our change management processes. Yeah,

Karan Rhodes  26:58

I love that. And listeners, although this is particular to Zach and Xsolis and his tech team, that lesson can be applied to almost any industry, is making sure that there’s a clear correlation between what the leaders are thinking tech or processes or whatever you fill in the blank or is used for, and then what the actual end users are doing, making that sure that connection is aligned, is going to be key for a ton of things, for strategic planning, for future investments, you name it so. But having said that, Zach, because now it’s very clear to me as to why? You know, we always love to ask our guests which of the leadership tactics that came out of our research really resonated. It’s really clear to me now why leading with courageous agility really popped for you and for my new listeners out there, leading with courageous agility is all about having the courage and the fortitude take calculated risk or stand up for what you believe in, even if you’re unsure the future what’s going to happen. It’s all about making baby steps, even with limited information. So Zach curious minds wants to know, why did the courageous agility really resonate for you?

Zach Evans  28:17

Yeah, I think it’s a great tactic to talk about, right? Because it’s I thought I saw something. I thought I saw look, that there is a need here, right? I’m using all my experience and, and, and, you know, past work lives and other things to say, man, we’re doing some really great things here, but there’s some things that that are making me really nervous. And when I first started socializing, the idea it was met with a tremendous amount of skepticism, and not just from my peers, from non technical folks, but even from my technical teams themselves. And now part of that is, you know, whenever you start talking about a change of this magnitude, look, we’re humans, one of the first things we ask is, well, what does this mean for me? And so, you know, from an engineer perspective, it became the concern of, well, am I going to have a place in this new world kind of thing? And so I had to, very quickly, just begin to have countless one on one discussions, small group discussions, as I just kind of tried to socialize this message, and as kind of momentum started growing, we just started kind of building around that, and candidly, Karen, at that point in time, like, where are we getting the funding for this? Where are we going to find the resources, right? All of these questions, I didn’t have answers to all of those. To your point earlier, how are we going to keep the existing system running while we’re doing this new thing? I didn’t have all the answers. I knew we needed to do it, but I didn’t have all the answers, but you had to put the time right. That’s right, that’s right, and but I’ll never forget, in one of our board meetings, the Chairman of our Board of Directors, who’s also a co founder, he’s the co founder that I had the relationship with that helped bring me to Exodus. I’ll never forget, yeah, we were, we were talking about this. It hadn’t been approved yet. We hadn’t green lighted the project yet, but we were talking about this effort. And he looked, and I love and respect this Jim. He’s a great friend and mentor. And he looked at nine, and he said, Look, he’s like, You need to understand. He’s like, I hear what you’re saying, but you’re writing the first line of your professional obituary,

Karan Rhodes  30:24

Yea. Wow.

Zach Evans  30:25

one way or the other, this thing’s either going to be successful and it’s going to be a thing that you hang your hat on, or it’s not, and you’re going to have to own it as the leader. And that was not a negative comment,

Karan Rhodes  30:35

right. right. Not at all.

Zach Evans  30:36

It was just, it was just a it was a Hey

Karan Rhodes  30:39

Put it into context.

Zach Evans  30:40

It is understand that that you are, I may agree with you, but like this is what this means for for yes, the organization at large, but also for you individually. And being able to step out courage and say, look like I think this is the right thing, and we’re going to do our dead level best to deliver this. That’s a scary thing, right? It

Karan Rhodes  31:03

It is. Very much so.

Zach Evans  31:04

You feel a little alone, and thankfully, yeah, thankfully, because of the team, yeah. I mean, look, it’s, I didn’t do this. We put together a, I think, a world class team that has consistently delivered. Have we been perfect? We have not. I’ve got a scratch list up of all the things I would do differently if I ever to do it again, and it’s a pretty good sized list, and that’s okay. We had the course correct along the ways, and we, you know, we thought we were going one direction, and we had to pivot and go. That’s part of the process, and we’re a better team for it. But, you know, the team, the team, really delivered, and our clients are really starting to see the value of that. But it all came from I had to step out and raise my hand and say, We need to chart a different course. And here I don’t, I don’t have all the answers, but here’s how I think we need to get there.  Yes, so best way to find about find out about excellence, you can visit our website, www.Xsolis.com, and that’s spelled x, s, o, l, i, s.com, that’s a great a great resource to learn about our company. I am on LinkedIn. My username Zach Evans, I’ve been on LinkedIn way longer than I care to admit that’s a great way to reach out to me. You can also find me on Twitter also. Username of Zach Evans, no underscore, no hyphens or anything. Again. Been on Twitter probably a little too long for my own good as well. So that’s probably the best way to reach out to me individually, and then exlist.com to learn more about our company.

Karan Rhodes  31:56

That is so amazing. What a story Zach. Well,  in Karan’s humble opinion, you are definitely a leader that is leading at the top of their game. So thank you very kind of you. Well, I want to thank you so much, Zach, for the gift of your time, for being on the episode, the gems that you’ve knowledge that you shared with our listeners. We’re going to have a ton of information in our show notes about you and excellence and fantastic things you were doing. But before we let you go, we’d love to give you voice to share where people can find out more about you and excellence.  That is awesome. Well, thank you again, Zach, for your time today. I’m sorry. We probably could have talked another hour probably, but absolutely, it’s been great. Thank you for coming on board again.

Zach Evans  33:12

Again, Karan, thank you so much for the opportunity. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation, and I can’t wait to listen to more of your podcasts and hear other perspectives as well. So thank you so much.

Karan Rhodes  33:29

Thank you. That’s a kind of exact and to you listeners, thank you as well for the gift of your time. We know that there are a million, literally, a million, billion other podcasts you could be listening to, so we don’t take your time lightly. We appreciate you coming back every week, and please also make sure you subscribe and share with just one friend, Because together, we will all learn how to better lead at the top of our games. Thanks so much. And see you next week. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.